Genesis 6:1-2

by Dansk 46 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  LittleToe

  Num.13:32, 33 ...And all the people we saw in its midst were men of stature. And we saw the giants there, the sons of Anak, of the giants. And we were in our own eyes as grasshoppers, and so we were in their eyes.
  

  This is the first encounter of the Israelites with the Nephilim. It appears that all the people of the land were giants, in addition to the sons of Anak.

  I don't doubt that a folklore had developed regarding the ante-diluvian Nephilim being big brutes, I just question whether or not they were the offspring mentioned in Gen.6.

  (Edited to add: sorry about the spelling error - Nephilim, not Nethilim.)
• 

  Narkissos

  Only in the present Torah order do the Genesis Nephilim appear as "ante-diluvian" -- because the Flood was added in between.

  Of course the mythological "gods - men -> hero" pattern may function, among other things, as an etiological explanation of the real phenomenon of gigantism (or: peoples of taller size). But the addition of the Flood ruins this function (as all giants are supposed to disappear then).

  Probably the last redactor of Genesis was somewhat aware of the problem, and tried to explain it away with an awkward gloss attempting to make room for the "post-diluvian" Nephilim of Numbers 13: "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown."
• 

  LittleToe

  Didier:Do you really think it's a gloss? It would really seem so awkward, to the point of making the text ugly.
  There are two interwoven Elohim/Yahweh tales in there, anyhow:

  Gen.6:1-9 KJV: "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants {Nephilim / brutes} in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God......"

  My question really surrounds whether or not that text more accurately belongs in the Yahweh narrative, as it seems to fit the context better.
• 

  frankiespeakin

  Nark,

  Thanks for the site with information on semon.

  Pythagoras (c. 550 BC), for example, in a doctrine which lasted at least until the Renaissance, held that the male semen was created from fluid collected from the entire body. The male parent played the dominant role in determining the form of the child. The mother served as the receptacle for the embryo formed entirely from male material. The obvious objection to this theory, that it had no room for the inheritance of the mother's characteristics, led another Greek thinker, Empedocles (c. 453 BC), to propose the notion of blending between the male and female sexual material in the production of the embryo. Thus the embryo was the result of various combinations of male and female genetic material and showed a variety of traits derived from the mother and the father.

  The most influential ancient doctrine of heredity came, not unexpectedly, from Aristotle, who postulated that semen was purified blood. Both parents contributed purified blood to the embryo, but the male semen was more purified than the female menstrual fluid. Thus, the male semen was the source of life and form; the female material was the matter, or the building material. Heredity was a matter, then, of "blood": the male parent contributing the vitality and the blueprint, the female the building blocks. A surviving fragment of this doctrine is our metaphor about "blood" in talking of heredity, as in, for example, the phrase "blue blood" to refer to the aristocracy.

  Largely on the strength of Aristotle's authority, this concept of heredity remained the dominant notion of inheritance for almost two thousand years, during which time there was no available systematic anatomical evidence to confirm or disprove it. Only with the development of studies in genetics, embryology, and histology were the arguments which led to modern theories initiated.
• 

  heathen

  There's no question in my mind that there is a giant gene in the human genes so it wouldn't be necessary to have angels mating with humans to produce a giant . I also think the case with the Israelites entering canaan and seeing these giants was exaggerated . I do believe that the account in genesis is talking about angelic intercourse with humans because there are other passages in the bible that mention it and that God felt disgust at the fact that angels would lust after flesh . I even believe that today stranger things are happening such as demonic possession. These angels from noahs day are now seeking flesh in a far more destructive and sick way than they were, to the point where mankind is driven insane .
• 

  Narkissos

  Ross,

  You'll be the last champion of the Yahwist / Elohist part of the documentary theory!

  Seriously though, 6:1-8 are classically ascribed to the Yahwist tradition, shifting to the priestly narrative only in v. 9 (still so in the footnotes of the 1998 French Jerusalem Bible). Btw I don't think that reading only your red lines would make much better narrative sequence, or style. "And also afterward" remains awkward imo.

  Fwiw I quoted the NRSV (ponctuation included); the French Jerusalem Bible also puts the phrase in parentheses.
• 

  LittleToe

  Didier:
  It seems I'm always last...
  But I'm having fun and learning stuff.
  I only entered this thread for amusement, with no hard and fast opinion on the subject

  I'm still unsure whether the sons of God or their offspring were the men of renown.
  Cutting out the Elohim references (previously in red):
  "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

  I see it as the following stages:

  • Men multiplying, with their daughters
  • The daughters being observed
  • The taking of wives
  • The baring of children
  • The designation as "men of renown"

  But, hey, I'm the amateur here. Please enlighten me.
  
• 

  Narkissos

  Heathen,

  I also think the case with the Israelites entering canaan and seeing these giants was exaggerated

  Not so simple. In Numbers 13:33 the Anaqim are identified with the Nephilim, and those will be mentioned very realistically in the conquest narrative (Deuteronomy 9:2; Joshua 11:21f, which makes the connection with the Philistine giants of David's stories, e.g. Goliath; etc.). Another gloss in Deuteronomy 2:10f identifies them to Rephaim, which come right from Canaanite mythology as characters of the underworld (see also v. 20f). See Leolaia's thread (link above) for more details.
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  Narkissos

  Ross,

  Your distribution of "sources" cuts one sentence asunder and creates an impossible one. In the text as it stands the subject is "the Nephilim" (LXX gigantes, "giants"), who are clearly enough identified as the offspring of the "sons of the gods" and the "daughters of the men". The first part of the sentence, which you remove, has hardly any connection with v. 3, and the second part, which you retain, cannot stand by itself syntactically. It would read, literally, "and also afterward that (relative) came the sons of the gods to the daughters of the man and they bore to them children they (are) the heroes which are from long ago, men of name." In the MT the second "they" (unconnected to the previous words) is the beginning of a new sentence.
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  heathen

  I get the idea , even goliath was considered one of the raphaim and if we go by the cubit measurements of a cubit equal to 1.45 ft. according to the WTBTS it makes 6cubits and a span out to be around 9ft in height , which is pretty friggen big and makes you wonder just how big the nephilim were supposed to be . Perhaps we are talking Titans as in the ancient greek mythology . If you look in the guiness book of world records you will find the worlds tallest man of the 20th century is 10ft tall . When he died I think the buried him in a piano case .