NWT Scholars

by homme perdu 166 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    Whatever the case, I guess we could spend our whole life discussing whether the Son is thought of as within or without creation in the New Testament.

    Narkissos, I guess this is the essence of my argument in favour of the NWT. If Paul and John thought of the Son as within creation then what they wrote should be translated to convey that interpretation. If they thought of the Son as outside creation then translation should convey that interpretation. Many translations convey the interpretation that the Son is outside creation because that is what the orthodox churches believe. The NWT is one of a few that offers an alternative which may be a more accurate reflection of first century Judaeo-Christian belief.

    Earnest : Interestingly, A New English Translation of the Septuagint, by Pietersma, translates Psalm 89:27 (LXX) as "I will make him the firstborn, high among the kings of the earth".
    Leolaia : ....About Psalm 89:27 (LXX), the preposition in question is para + dative (e.g. "before, near"), and not meta + genitive or pros + accusative (both "among, with"), so I'm not sure how accurate the rendering is...
    Narkissos : IMO you should not make to much of the preposition "among" which is not implied by the text:

    Psalm 89:28 TM literally reads: "and I will give (= set, appoint) him (as) firstborn, most-high (`elyôn) to the kings of the earth." `elyôn is normally no adjective, it is the name-title of the supreme god of the old polytheistic pantheon (= El): sounds more like a transcendantal status than "first among peers". LXX translates "and I will put (= set, appoint) him (as) firstborn (prototokon), high (hupsèlon) to (para + dative) the kings of the earth". It is an awkward comparative, nothing like "among".

    Pietersma doesn't give the reasons for this translation but, with respect, he is well qualified to translate the Septuagint (http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm/).

    scholar, my interest in this thread has more to do with the accuracy of the NWT than the chronology of the WTS so it is irrelevant to me what the outcome of this particular duel with AlanF is. However, I did suggest earlier that you would not accept the challenge made by Narkissos because I thought your claims for the NWT were unproveable. You did accept the challenge on condition it be conducted by pm rather than publicly, and both of you have respected that. Nevertheless, as one who does believe the NWT has much to offer it would be of great interest were you to agree that the substance of your discussion be made public.

    Earnest

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Earnest......(1) Should the translation be concerned more with the sense of the immediate text (e.g. dealing with the implications of the genitive in v. 15, the logical implications of the hoti in v. 16, what constitutes the set of pas "all" in both v. 15 and v. 16-19, etc.), rather than what one thinks is probable first-century belief? The combined weight of these considerations conflict with the view that the text is construing Jesus as a creature. The insertion of "[other]" creates problems which do not exist by leaving it out. In my opinion, the idiosyncratic NWT rendering is governed by a desire to read the text in an Arian way rather than on its own terms. The NWT forces the genitive in v. 15 to be necessarily partitive in its treatment of v. 16-19; nearly all other translations leave the matter open. (2) Pietersma's credentials are not in dispute, that is not the point. The point is whether "among" is the best word to translate para + dative. "High to the kings of the earth" or "high before the kings of the earth" implies a vertical relationship than a horizontal one ("among" would be preferred had the preposition been meta or pros). The vertical force of hupsèlon and the spatial implication of para combine to set the "firstborn" apart from the object of para. That is not to say that it is impossible to read "among"; it is just not implied in the text. Burton's translation renders the LXX in this way: "I will make him [my] first-born, higher than the kings of the earth".

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Earnest,

    I actually said:

    Whatever the case, I guess we could spend our whole life discussing whether the Son is thought of as within or without creation in the New Testament. It is an anachronistic question which was only asked later (cf. Philo's Logos which can be called protogonos but also the first of angels).

    I guess you perhaps missed my point, for you answer:

    Narkissos, I guess this is the essence of my argument in favour of the NWT. If Paul and John thought of the Son as within creation then what they wrote should be translated to convey that interpretation. If they thought of the Son as outside creation then translation should convey that interpretation. Many translations convey the interpretation that the Son is outside creation because that is what the orthodox churches believe. The NWT is one of a few that offers an alternative which may be a more accurate reflection of first century Judaeo-Christian belief.

    My take is that "Paul" or "John" thought neither, because they did not work with that later concept of created / uncreated. (Neither did Philo regarding the Logos or Sophia.) The same problem appears, for instance, when you search NT writings for an answer to the 4th-century issue of Christ's nature(s). You can always answer both ways, and the evidence is hopelessly confuse because you are asking an anachronistic question.

    As one of my exegesis professors (and a very strict Evangelical at that) put it once, "the Bible answers any question, provided you ask it the right questions".

    As to the usefulness of the NWT in this respect, I would say: if we had only confessional, apologetic translations of the Bible, yes, it would be quite useful to have a unitarian translation alongside the trinitarian ones. But this is not the case of the translations produced in the last century. Actually, several translations have been made by non-confessional scholars (at least in French); and many confessional translations (such as the Jerusalem Bible) reflect a fairly honest and scientific approach. Where has the WT found its numerous quotes that "there is no trinity (as such) in the NT", if not from the honest scientific work of scholars who could at the same time be members of trinitarian churches? As even F.W. Franz acknowledged once, some translations, including from "Christendom", are definitely less biased than the NWT.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Further quotations from Philo (using protogonos instead of Colossians' prototokos):

    De Confusione linguarum 146: ?And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born word, the eldest of his angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Word, and man according to God?s image, and he who sees ? Israel.?

    63: « For the Father of the universe has caused him to spring up as the eldest son, whom, in another passage, he calls the firstborn. And he who is thus born, imitating the ways of his father, as formed such and such species, looking to his archetypal patterns.?

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    Psalm 89:27 (LXX) "I will make him the firstborn, high among the kings of the earth".
    Leolaia : Pietersma's credentials are not in dispute, that is not the point. The point is whether "among" is the best word to translate para + dative. "High to the kings of the earth" or "high before the kings of the earth" implies a vertical relationship than a horizontal one ("among" would be preferred had the preposition been meta or pros). The vertical force of hupsèlon and the spatial implication of para combine to set the "firstborn" apart from the object of para. That is not to say that it is impossible to read "among"; it is just not implied in the text. Burton's translation renders the LXX in this way: "I will make him [my] first-born, higher than the kings of the earth".

    Leolaia, I put your comments to Professor Pietersma and he replied :

    To be sure, if the construction had been PARA + accusative I would have rendered it as a comparative, i.e. 'higher than', since PARA + accusative regularly means that in compositional Greek as well as translational Greek. PARA + dative, on the other hand is not so attested, nor for that matter is PARA + gen.
    You will find the same construction in 75:13, where likewise I did not render it as a comparative statement. As for the [my]?though it may possibly be supplied from the context, the Greek text has no MOU nor does it have an article. Thus I might in fact better have rendered "a firstborn" , i.e. assigned the status of a firstborn, lest readers construe the English article the way one would the Greek article in such cases.

    Earnest

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Earnest, that's why I called it "an awkward comparative"... To mean "among" the simplest way in LXX Greek would be en + dative, or the more classical simple dative.

    Edited to add: the formal parallelism of Psalm 75(76):13 (para + dative, for the same Hebrew preposition le) does not justify "among" either:

    "(God) is fear-inspiring to the kings of the earth" (He is not one of them...).

    And the parallel is even more interesting when you think of nora' / phoberos, "fear-inspiring", as a divine title, just as Elyôn in 89:27...

    In sum the most secure translation would be "before" or "to".

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alan F

    It is all smoke and mirrors with your exhaustive deconstruction of WT chronology. With all being said you cannot provide an alternative biblical chronology. So, the biblical data and the secular data is meaningless. But WT chronology has certainly tried and has provided a consistent fallible bible chronolgy which has served as a framework for the fulfillment of prophecy. Perhaps, you should tell Carl Jonsson these facts that he is wasting his time with any chronology because it is meaningless, perhaps you should rewrite the Bible and omit those texts that contain any chronological data because such information is mythical.

    Whatever your criticism of WT chronology amounts to, you still cannot provide an alternative to the Lord's chronology so in the absence of any surety from you I will continue to defend our accurate and splendid chronology.

    Your inability or laziness in providing a chronology of the Divided Monarchy shows how puerile your comments on Wt chronology is . Many scholars have worked on this subject and have met this challenge but you cannot. WT chronology has from the earliest times also faced up to and met this challenge and continues similarly to this day providing a workable, consistent chronology for both Israel and Judah. This is the real test of the chronologist. However, all you can do is criticize the faithful labours of honest and humble men who love God, his Son and his Word. Frankly, your comments are despicable and show that you are a fool because you do not even believe in the Christian message, the Bible, prophecy and chronology.

    scholar

    BA MA Studies in Religion

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Spoken like a true scholar.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Earnest....Very interesting to hear the comments from the translator. My point relating to para + dative wasn't necessarily that it expresses a comparative relation (which I know is frequently indicated with an accusative), but that a horizontal relation putting David on the same par as the "kings of the earth" (implied by "among") is rendered implausible by the vertical spatial adjective hupsèlon "high" which would support a spatial reading (i.e. "before" or "to") rather than an associative one (i.e. "with"). I think Narkissos' point about Psalm 75:13 is a great one; here again an associative reading is not only implausible but also impossible. As for it being an "awkward comparative," the proximal sense of para + dative in Greek of "beside, near, next to" can suggest comparison, e.g. "I will make him firstborn, high next to the kings of the earth". This includes the sense of spatial proximity that Pietersma's translation expresses with "among" but does not imply that David is himself counted among the "kings of the earth". (Yes, yes, as I already said, David is literally a "king of the earth," but the text is emphasizing his trancendance).

    I was looking for other cases of para + dative in the literature and there is an interesting pattern in which the spatial relation is cognitive....so that the expression can be paraphrased as "in the estimation of". For example:

    Psalm 75:13: "[God] is fear-inspiring to (or, in the estimation of) the kings of the earth".
    1 Corinthians 3:19: "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to (or, in the estimation of) God"
    James 1:17: "Religion that is pure and undefiled to (or, in the estimation of) God and Father is this..."
    2 Peter 3:8: "One day to (or, in the estimation of) the Lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day".

    I wonder if Psalm 89:27 might work similarly; that is, the sense is "I will make him the firstborn, high (in the estimation of) the kings of the earth", so that the proximity expressed by para + dative would be psychological or cognitive. We can get a similar sense in English: "To the kings of the earth, [he will be] high", that is, high from their point of view. What makes this rendering a little attractive is that it gets at the sense of the Hebrew which employs the divine epithet Elyon (= hupsèlon) to characterize the status of David in relation to the kings of the earth; to them, he is Elyon. Either this or the suggestion above would bring the LXX closer in line with the sense of the Hebrew -- at least closer than the associative "among".

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Unscholar, you are amazingly and militantly stupid. Just look at the nonsense you wrote in defense of your idiotic mentors, the men who write for Watchtower Society:

    : It is all smoke and mirrors with your exhaustive deconstruction of WT chronology.

    There is no "smoke and mirror" problem with my straightforward presentation of failed Watchtower-predicted dates and wrong chronology. The "smoke and mirrors" are entirely on the Watchtower end and your end. Speaking as "God's prophets" they predicted a host of events that were to occur at various times, not one of which came to pass. That's all that needs to be said to prove unequivocally that Watchtower leaders are "false prophets" by their own definition and by the Bible's definition.

    : With all being said you cannot provide an alternative biblical chronology.

    Of course not, because as I've repeatedly told you, and the disagreement among good scholars proves, the Bible is internally inconsistent about the reigns of the Hebrew kings. What do you want me to do? Invent a consistent chronology out of thin air? If I did that, would you follow me instead of Watchtower leaders? I am not a Bible writer and I certainly have no intention of correcting 3000-year-old problems.

    : So, the biblical data and the secular data is meaningless.

    You certainly have a way of twisting the truth to make the Watchtower cult come out on top and advance your silly cultish apologetical agenda. What I said, and what I have proved via your own references, is that the Biblical information about the details of the reigns of the Hebrew kings is internally inconsistent. This is extremely significant because certain biblical passages declare that "all scripture is inspired of God", and so whatever "scripture" is, it must be infallible. Conversely, whatever is fallible -- including Bible books that are internally inconsistent -- cannot be "scripture". What I have consistently said, and various scholars have proved beyond all reasonable doubt, is that secular data is self-consistent (in the usual scientific sense that doesn't demand infallibility) and allows good scholars to construct a self-consistent chronology from about 670 B.C. forward. In reality, though, the solid biblical data that we have is completely consistent with secular chronology, and so your claims and those of the Watchtower Society that "the Bible conflicts with secular chronology" are simple lies based on your insistence that the discredited chronology of C. T. Russell and his mentors is still correct. If you people would face the facts, the inconsistencies that you want to pretend do not exist would not be a problem.

    : But WT chronology has certainly tried

    I once tried to fly by flapping my arms. I learned an important lesson.

    : and has provided a consistent fallible bible chronolgy

    I certainly agree that they've provided a "fallible bible chronolgy"!

    : which has served as a framework for the fulfillment of prophecy.

    How you can write such outright nonsense and not see it is absolutely amazing! I mean, here you admit that the Watchtower Society has always presented a "fallible bible chronolgy", and yet you cannot understand that the flaws inherent in such a fallible system inevitably result in a flawed "framework for the fulfillment of prophecy"!!!???? That flawed framework resulted in the complete failure of every observable thing that C. T. Russell predicted for 1914, the total failure of everything that Rutherford and his cohorts predicted for 1925 (including the collapse of the foundation of the "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" campaign), and the complete failure of everything that the Watchtower Society taught the JW community to believe about 1975 from 1966 forward.

    The total failure of a single predicted observable event to be observed is absolute proof that there is no "fulfillment of prophecy" with respect to Watchtower leaders. If you think there are observable events in connection with these cult leaders, then I challenge you to present a case. Of course, both you and I know that you can't, and so you will never meet my challenge.

    : Perhaps, you should tell Carl Jonsson these facts that he is wasting his time with any chronology because it is meaningless,

    Carl is entirely familiar with the facts as I stated above and does not need my help.

    : perhaps you should rewrite the Bible and omit those texts that contain any chronological data because such information is mythical.

    If I had the power, I'd rewrite a lot more than just those few things in the Bible that are problematic. In fact, I'd rewrite it in such a way that it would be impossible for braindead cultists to misconstrue and use to further their own nefarious ends.

    : Whatever your criticism of WT chronology amounts to,

    Which by default you've admitted is entirely correct.

    : you still cannot provide an alternative to the Lord's chronology

    As I showed above, a flawed chronology cannot possibly be "the Lord's chronology". So, unscholar, you're leaning upon a broken reed and it will certainly pierce your hand. Why not lean on something more solid and avoid injury?

    : so in the absence of any surety from you I will continue to defend our accurate and splendid chronology.

    Ah, the usual defense of the cornered cultist: "If you can't provide an alternative cult, I'll stick with the one I have." Normally I'd mock you for this, but for now I'll be generous and allow that you just can't help it.

    : Your inability or laziness in providing a chronology of the Divided Monarchy shows how puerile your comments on Wt chronology is .

    No, my inability to provide a coherent chronology of the Divided Monarchy is, as I have repeatedly stated and proved, based on the simple fact that the only data we have -- the Bible as constructed by the Catholic and Protestant communities -- is internally inconsistent. Since a number of far better scholars than I -- in particular, the ones you yourself listed in an earlier post -- are unable to agree on the details, it would be pointless for me personally to delve into this question. And I have much more interesting things to pursue than a disproved myth.

    Conversely, you cannot show how Watchtower chronology can resolve the discrepancies in the Biblical data. If you disagree, it would be extremely easy for you to disprove my claim: all you would have to do is show how the disagreements among the various scholars you listed can be resolved by reference to Watchtower chronology. Of course, since we're talking about a supposedly infallible document "breathed by God", you'd have to do this with each and every discrepancy. But we already know that you can't do this, and so my point is proved.

    : Many scholars have worked on this subject and have met this challenge

    Nonsense. The fact that they all disagree proves that they haven't resolved the discrepancies.

    : but you cannot.

    Of course!

    : WT chronology has from the earliest times also faced up to and met this challenge

    Not at all. All that Watchtower writers, from Charles and Maria Russell onward, have done is to take the biblical passages they liked and use them to support their ideas, and have just ignored the passages that they couldn't bring into line with the others.

    : and continues similarly to this day

    Precisely the problem!

    : providing a workable,

    Workable, but not correct, or consistent with every biblical passage.

    : consistent chronology for both Israel and Judah.

    I've already proved that your claim is a lie. Why do you keep repeating it?

    : This is the real test of the chronologist.

    Indeed it is, and by this test, both the Bible and its interpreters have failed.

    : However, all you can do is criticize the faithful labours of honest and humble men who love God, his Son and his Word.

    Really.

    I certainly criticize the labors of Watchtower leaders, but it's provable that these men are not faithful to God, are not honest or humble, and therefore cannot "love God, his Son and his Word." The fact that they prostituted themselves to their own notion of "the eighth head of the seven-headed beast" of Revelation by joining themselves to the United Nations as an Associated Non Governmental Organization (NGO) beginning in 1992 is just one proof of this. If you need more proofs, I'll be happy to oblige.

    : Frankly, your comments are despicable

    Yeth, my commentth are dethpicable. The truth ith alwayth dethpicalbe to braindead cultists.

    : and show that you are a fool because you do not even believe in the Christian message, the Bible, prophecy and chronology.

    Oh? And you have observable evidence that, say, "Bible prophecy" has been fulfilled in the lifetimes of some now living? What, pray tell, is that observable evidence?

    It's obvious that you can not and will not ever provide such evidence, and therefore it's obvious to all readers that your claims are unfounded nonsense -- nonsense patterned after what you've learned from your cult leaders in Brooklyn.

    AlanF

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