Tchi Tchi : please make an other post to complete your thoughs instead of adding thing later on ...
Cost of War
Is not the cost of war based, in part, on what is going on in Iraq? Yes, Freedom is the issue....
Tchi-Tchi Read Teejay : no comment ...
I did, and this quote from France makes a very powerful point to peope like Teejay.
Is part of these costs "ticking away" related to our expense of defending Europe? NATO? South Korea? Yes, its about freedom.....
Tchi-Tchi : I did
I know ... (that's what's "interesting" to me ... I could have use an other word than interesting ... but you know what I'm not gonna use it or maybe this can help : as a hint !!!)
Whose freedom? Doesn't the rest of the world have a say, or only the USA?
Yes, its about freedom.....
SO TRUE SO TRUE I pray to GOd every night hoping he will soon intervene. I would hate to just wake up one morning and not be glad that I am alive b/c of all that goes on.
Positively Pavlovian response there ThiChi (my previous comment "Funny how all the Republican pro-war people melt away like snow in sunlight when they have to explain how it could be possibly be 'worth' it ...")
Who's a GOOD Republican apologist then?! Hey? Want to play fetch?! What a waggy tail you have!
Will you come if I ring a bell?
(note - the above is not presented as a fallacious or even a fellatio argument; it's what we call 'taking the piss'. Please treat it as such.)
Ya know, I think some people fail to understand that they are not geniuses because they get laughed at. Yes, some geniuses are laughed at; the Wright brothers, Leonardo da Vinchi, etc.,. But clowns are laughed at too, and nobody thinks they are anything other than tragic fools (all credit to Pratchett on this one).
Individually, each of them had more to lose than to gain in a revolution.
Ah, revolution as altruism.
Your quotation is what you consider relevent. You completely fail to address the issue of the fiscal and human cost of Gulf War II (which would have cost less in lives and money had more time been taken to have other Arabic nations in on it; it was rushed as Saddam was - falsely - presented as an immediate threat to the USA). You mouth speeches whilst billions are squandered and innocents die. Let's see what these precious words actually say;
"...It is not the critic who counts:
Yeah, all those naughty people who criticised Lenin, Pol Pot, Hitler, and other monsters don't count?
Of course critics count - sometimes they are RIGHT!
Without criticism of misogyny and racism, for example, they would be more acceptable than they are today. If you are against critics, you are for the status quo, even if that status quo is unjust.
I really don't think you are against critics; you are (just) against critics of what you think is right. Yet rather than dealing with issues raised, you c&p a quote that is meaningless in this context; its relevence resides soley in your analysis of the situation, namely, they were right at the heart of it and any errors and mistakes are okay because of that.
I'd love to see you have that attidtude holding a dead seven-year daughter in your arms, killed by an 'accident'. I think your attempt to white-wash the errors of those who made the decison to go to war (in the way they did) would end if your loved-one's blood was all over you and the curtains because of their 'errors'. But hell, they're not you, why should YOU care if they pay the price YOU have determined is worth THEM paying for THEIR freedom?
What do you think people are going to do, say "Oooo, yes, critics are bad and always wrong, I'll shut-up now, thank you oh wise one you have convinced me without using any form of argumentation other than "I'm right shut-up"?
Well, sorry, but to us, it's you hiding behind misappropriated words as you cannot make a coherent argument as to WHY IT IS WORTH IT. The 'Citizenship in a Republic' speech can hardly be held to apply to the justification of an invasion of a country, in any case; did you not know this or was its irrelevence less important than clutching at some straw of justification?
Gawd, there's LOADS of better quotes you COULD have used if you wanted to avoid actually making a coherent argument as to why it is worth it. They'd not of neccesarilly proven your point, but they'd have been arguably more relevent.
"Friends, Romans, Countrymen, give me your ears"
See? I told you I was right! It's obvious! I made a quote to prove it!
not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better.
Okay everyone, take a deep breath as it's a long way to the next full-stop...
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat...."
So valid criticism is not allowable or useful? So saying, "dude, thousands of people less would have died and you wouldn't have created a new terrorism hotbed if you'd listened to what people were saying about the risks of invading without involving other countries from the region in the invasion" is not useful? So ill-advised incompetent men can make idiotic blunders without criticism becaue they 'meant well'? HITLER "MEANT WELL".
Your entire position is based upon a presumption of rightness of intent and how this justifies, seemingly, any errors made in taking action to secure one's goals.
What a dumb argument.
A wish there was a product in Ikea called 'Clue'. I could then ask you to go and buy one, and tell you that it came with assembly instructions...
That was fun (just to strip you of any ranting liberal illusions, this is amusing coffee-time diversion for me)....
Oh, you missed this quote Thi Chi;
It is well if a large proportion of the leaders in any republic, in any democracy, are, as a matter of course, drawn from the classes represented in this audience to-day [scientific and educational elite at the Sorbonne]; but only provided that those classes possess the gifts of sympathy with plain people and of devotion to great ideals
Whilst I risk choking on my tongue is I class Bush as part of a 'scientific and educational elite', there is no doubt there are brains behind him, and he physically can't be as stupid as he sometimes seems, or he'd have to wear a bib to catch the drool. Despite this it is the failing of a self-appointed world power to 'possess the gifts of sympathy with plain people' that put the World at great risk today.
Personally I think $140 Billion would go a great way to implementing clean water supplies worldwide, vaccinatiing children against disease, fighting HIV, educating people, famine relief and peace-keeping in areas where the UN determined a multi-national effort was required to safeguard human rights and lives. Those are my 'great ideals'.
To me, children in the developing world having a better, healthier, more educated future is more likely to keep the world a safer place for me and my children than any number of bullets or shiny helicopter gunships.
The 'great ideals' of the US administration (as attested to in official documents) are extending and increasing the US's power, largely in millitaristic terms.
If you want to support those ideals, go right ahead.
I'll be the 'silly hippy' wanting children in the developing world to have a better, healthier, more educated future. You be the right winger supporting US millitary power no matter what 'mistakes' are made.
First of all, ThiChi,
Would you please tell me what relevance Teddy Roosevelt's quote has to current events in Iraq? For example, did Iraq or Saddam Hussein ever threaten freedom or democracy? in America? According to all accounts, he didn't and wasn't even close to doing so.
I have family over there. My dearest blood....
Many people feel that, regardless of what happens in Iraq, little will change here in the US. Some think America is safer since the invasion, but just as many think we are less safe. How would you feel if your loved ones died and nothing changed in Iraq and America ended up less safe? Would their sacrifice have been worth it?
I am not a critic of what freedom brings...however, It seem that you are.
What a ridiculous thing to say!! No one in their right mind is opposed to the fruits of freedom. That, my friend, is a straw man argument. What this thread discusses is whether or not the billions being spent and hundreds of lives being damaged or lost in Iraq will result in true freedom for Iraqis and a greater, more secure freedom here. IOW, is it money well spent?
Question: what if Iraqis choose Ayatollah Sistani as their leader? What if, after the coalition pulls out of Iraq, the Iraqis voluntarily chose to have a religious government like Iran's? Would you consider your loved ones' sacrifice worth it then? Because when we say we want Iraqis to have "freedom," what we *should* mean is: we want the Iraqis to have the freedom to choose FOR THEMSELVES what they want, not what America or the Bush Administration thinks is best for them.