Are you an atheist? ...

by Nicolas 56 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  czarofmischief

  What precisely does He have to explain?

  I am getting a lot of anger from your posts. That's fair enough - but emotion isn't all there is to an argument . What would it take for the omnipotent Deity to make you happy?

  We've covered that God had a front row seat to the Holocaust. I agree with you. Being more or less omnipotent (which is tricky to define) I concur that he could have done something to stop it.

  But here's the thing: at what point does he act? When the Jewish deaths reached one million? That's a little high of a number to wait until. How about the first Jewish death - but then who does He pick to die? Okay, how about when the German people began to listen to the anti-semitic voices in their midst, after all it was a bad attitude on their part that led to the murder of millions. But wait a minute, all they are doing is talking, nothing has been done and God couldn't PROVE that they were going to kill Jews, can He?

  You see the difficulty in making people happy - on the one hand, they want their freedoms; but they also are terrified of the consequences. There is no way to control a free willed creature.

  But why should God bother explaining these things to you? If nothing He could say would sufficiently calm you down, perhaps Nothing is the only response you'll get.

  The fact of the matter is that the Holocaust was OUR fault. It was OUR idea (I speak of humanity in general) and it took HUMANS to concieve it and put it into action. God has already said that such actions would make us unhappy - he ahs said it over and over through many different mediums. I'm more concerned with British and American indifference to the Holocaust. If anything, being closer to the action, they had more responsibility. God sure watched, and I'm sure he was disgusted, but doing something? What more could he do that would still respect our free will, other than say, "That's stupid. Don't do that."

  But the idea of Divine Intervention would create resentment in the minds of people who want something done, just not to THEM and THEIR rights. Because if God stops a Holocaust, then he has to reach in and stop YOU from doing all the things YOU know are wrong, or even the things you think are right but are still wrong in a larger moral sense. Because the Nazis thought they were right, and it isn't fair to let one guy get away with cursing his children and stop another from setting fires. Etiher we are all forced to obey or none of us are. That's just logic.

  So the presence of evil neither disproves nor proves the existence of God, nor does it question his benevolence. All it does is condemn the humans who practice it.

  CZAR
• 

  Balsam

  Diest, believe in something all powerful creating life and Universe but not involved with his creation.
• 

  TMS

  Czar,

  Your words:

  "So the presence of evil neither disproves nor proves the existence of God, nor does it question his benevolence. All it does is condemn the humans who practice it."

  Neither of us can prove or disprove anything. That wasn't the point of my post at all. I certainly have no idea whether god exists or not. My point was simply that if he exists I'm not impressed with him. I cannot directly answer the question "Are you an atheist?" because I do not know.

  You detected no anger in my post. There was none.

  tms
• 

  czarofmischief

  Very good then. As you wish.

  CZAR
• 

  seattleniceguy

  Nicolas asked:

  seattleniceguy: What about my theory with Santa Claus? Isn't it true that if you can accept the evidence that god is somewhere in the universe, without any proof, you could also as well, accept that Santa Claus is living somewhere in the north-pole?

  My point is that I cannot accept that God is somewhere in the universe without any proof. But just as there is no evidence that God does exist, there is certainly no evidence ruling out a god or gods. I would say that if they do exist, however, they seem likely to reside outside the sealed box that is our universe. In that case, we can never hope to find evidence regarding their existence. SNG
• 

  azaria

  First of all even though I do come across as very annoyed, I’m not, but am very saddened and offended by a number of remarks. I'm not offended when someone questions or wonders if God exists, it's when people make derogatory comments about Him that offends me and I'm sure most Christians. I guess in a very small way it’s like someone who is incapable of designing, building or affording a house and then complaining to the builder who donated this house. The people move in only to destroy the house and then complain to the builder, that he is an untalented, stupid being. (Or for those who don’t even believe in God- the house just happened to appear out of nowhere) I know it’s not put together very well but hope you get the gyst of it. These responses really upset me. Human beings who can’t understand or comprehend Him yet try to define who God is. They are not impressed with him, he’s weak, stupid and evil or he simply doesn’t exist.

  There is no compelling evidence of His existence? Maybe they should really open their eyes and look around. I do believe in God and do see proof of His existence in everything good in this world. I do believe that He is omnipotent, omniscient, intelligent, loving, just. According to one booklet I read, only about 4.5% of the world population consider themselves atheists, 1,900 million or 34 % of the population consider themselves Christian. Does that mean that 4.5% of the people are intelligent, self sufficient, and that the rest are stupid and in need of a crutch because without that crutch we would surely be a pitiful bunch of human beings?

  It seems that many who were formerly witnesses are now atheists or agnostic. Does that say something about this organization? Is it possible that it was so ingrained in you that this was the only true religion and that all other religions were false and evil, that when you started to question you ended up rejecting all religion? From what I personally have experienced it seems that the witness psyche is very hopeless (in spite of what they say) and very negative. I believe that Christians don’t have perfect lives (like the rest of society) but they have hope in an eternal life and the hope that with Jesus in their hearts that the here and now is more joyful in spite of the problems and suffering we all experience, that as human beings we try to become better people that sincerely want to help others, to make a difference in this world. It seems that many people who complain about evil and that it’s God’s fault fail to do anything about it. Who are the first to help their fellow man during a tragedy? I think it’s time that we quit blaming God for everything and put the blame where it truly belongs, with us.
• 

  czarofmischief

  I think it?s time that we quit blaming God for everything and put the blame where it truly belongs, with us.

  Amen, sister. Preach it!

  CZAR
• 

  seattleniceguy

  Hey Azaria,

  It sounded like I was one of those who posted things that made you uncomfortable. However, I think you misunderstand me when you compare me to a tenant who lives in a donated house and tears down the builder. I very much like the house. I take good care of it. I don't tear down the builder because I'm not convinced he exists.

  You might say, "Of course he exists! How else did the house get there?" I would reply that in the case of literal houses, we have a very strong precedent that houses are constructed by humans. We can easily demonstrate that every house on the earth has been built by a human. However, there is no precedent saying that universes are built by Creator-people. We have no other universes to which to compare ours. We really have no basis on which to say that there must be a God, simply based on the universe's existence. The analogy of the universe to a house is a misleading one.

  According to one booklet I read, only about 4.5% of the world population consider themselves atheists, 1,900 million or 34 % of the population consider themselves Christian. Does that mean that 4.5% of the people are intelligent, self sufficient, and that the rest are stupid and in need of a crutch because without that crutch we would surely be a pitiful bunch of human beings?

  This argument is always interesting to me. Christians will doubtless say that that the 66% of humanity that does not share their views are uninformed or misguided, sadly lacking the knowledge and love of the Christ. The only difference between this view and the one you attribute to atheists is a numerical one. That is, you believe that 66% of humanity is sadly mistaken, whereas atheists believe that 95% of humanity is. Really, you're closer than you think on this issue.

  At any rate, it doesn't really matter how many people believe a certain thing. An argument stands or falls based on its own merits.

  Regarding house-universe allegories, you might find it interesting to read one that I wrote. Here's a link:
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/63470/1.ashx

  Nice chatting!

  SNG
• 

  Euphemism

  Azaria... I do understand how you feel. If you have a great deal of respect and admiration for someone, it's hard to hear them criticized. And I'm not going to try to debate the existence of God with you; you're entitled to your opinion.

  But some of the opinions you attribute to atheists bother me. For example:

  According to one booklet I read, only about 4.5% of the world population consider themselves atheists, 1,900 million or 34 % of the population consider themselves Christian. Does that mean that 4.5% of the people are intelligent, self sufficient, and that the rest are stupid and in need of a crutch

  Of course not. In my honest opinion, theism or atheism is a triviality. I think that whether a person is compassionate and open-minded and a good listener and takes responsibility for their actions says a lot more about them than their metaphysical beliefs do.

  it possible that it was so ingrained in you that this was the only true religion and that all other religions were false and evil, that when you started to question you ended up rejecting all religion?

  I can only describe my own journey. When I left the Witnesses, my intention was to remain a Christian. (In fact, if you look through my early posts, you can even find me debating the free will paradox with AlanF.) But as I worked assiduously to build a theological viewpoint, I found contradictions that I could not reconcile. I read works by non-JW Christian apologists, and I no longer found them convincing. I had endless discussions with a Christian friend, trying to work through the possibilties, passing gradually from a liberal Christianity to deism to agnosticism. Finally, reading about evolutionary psychology answered my biggest lingering questions, and so I now regard myself as an atheist.

  For the first time in my life, I feel that my belief-system makes sense. I know I don't have all the answers, but I also don't suffer an attack of self-doubt every time I read a contrary argument. I am intellectually at peace.

  And that is why I am an atheist.
• 

  azaria

  Sorry for not responding sooner. With work and everything I’m very busy. I wish I had more time for this post. Thanks SNG and Euphemism for responding. My intention was not to persuade anyone to change their mind. I can’t, just like you can’t change my mind. Some say, show me that God exists and I say, I know that God exists because I see it all around me. The older I get the more in awe I am. My concern is for new people who have just left the org and are very vulnerable. Maybe I’m wrong, but I see some like vultures ready for their prey.

  The analogy of the universe to a house is a misleading one.

  As for my analogy, I admit it was extremely simplistic but I don’t understand why it’s a misleading one. It’s like comparing our Heavenly Father to our earthly father. There is no comparison. Likewise, comparing a house to the universe. The point I was trying to make was that I get very offended when God is maligned in such a way. I believe that He created all things and for me to hear someone say that He is stupid more than offends me.

  The most asked question and probably the most difficult to answer is why there is so much suffering. As Czar has stated at what point should God have responded to our sins and interceded? The first time when sin occurred and each and every time that sin was committed? We would always be like little children, never growing up, never truly loving and empathetic, never being responsible for our own mistakes. God loves us so much that He gave us free choice. You can’t truly love without free choice. If some here don’t like how God set it up how would you have done it, if you had the power?

  For some it's too ludicrous to consider that there is a creator. As for me, it's too ludicrous to consider that there is no creator. But as I said before we are all given free choice. Some choose not to believe and some choose to believe. Some say there is no proof and others say there’s an abundance of proof. I do believe that if someone is truly not interested, God will not reveal Himself. Take care, Azaria