by 2evil 65 Replies latest jw friends

  • blindfool


    Welcome to the board. Hopefully you will find what you are looking for here.

    I'm not a former elder or even a MS. But I also have a wife that has been a JW for many years. She also believes most of what they teach, although she sees some problems. She would never look at this board either.

    I agree with you that the UN thing is not that big an issue. I think the WT joined to make expanding their preaching into other areas of the world easier. Being affiliated with the UN gave them some credibility.

    I don't think the witnesses are all bad. I think some individual witnesses are sincere and are guided by Jehovah's Holy Sprit. I also think many other religions have individuals guided by Jehovah's Holy Spriit. I don't think Jehovah works exclusively through any one organization. It seems to me that an individuals relationship to Jehovah, or at least as importantly, an individuals relationship with Jesus is the most important thing.

    I understand what you mean when you talk about experiences with the Holy Sprit. I know I've felt that power before. But to be honest, I've never felt the Holy Sprit at a meeting at the Kindom Hall. I've never felt that power during a public talk or a Watchtower study. I've felt that power more when approching Jehovah in prayer and asking for his help, in a small group or just as an individual praying for God's Sprit.

    I hope you understand what I'm talking about. To someone that has no faith, I might sound crazy. But for those of us with faith, we understand the power of God's Holy Sprit.

    One thing that does bother me is that it seems to me that a lot of times, when people come to realize the WT society is not the "truth", they not only lose faith in the WT but also in God. It is so hard for former witnesses to seperate God or Jehovah from the WTBTS.

    I'll pass along some advice. Don't concentrate on just the negative issues you can find about the WT. Read material from other sources that have nothing to do with former witnesses. I have found I enjoy reading positive books by all sorts of Christian writers. One of my favorites lately is John Maxwell. He writes books on leadership. He approches things from a Christian perspective, but his books are not just for Christians. One of his quotes that I like is: "If you read my books, and The Bible, you could get into heaven." Kinda funny!!

    Good luck in you journey.


  • Gadget
    but as my dad always sys "where else would you go?".

    I'm sure the Jews in the first century would have said the same when people complained about the burden of the oral torah that the priests placed on them.

  • 2evil

    Disappointment is reletive. I am a disappointment to my parents and wife in someways, but I don't feel overly bad about this. If the witness way was right, and I could convice myself of it I whole heartedly would be doing "what I should be". Problem is, I can't do that. I stopped feeling guilty a few months ago. It's not my fault I doubt them. It's the societies. I can't help that they promoted a fase teaching, which was a big hook used to generate interest, for 50+ years. I didn't make them do it.

  • kls

    Yes 2evil . The WT actually shows what they are but it takes someone with an open mind to see it.

  • Nosferatu
    as my dad always sys "where else would you go?"

    Your dad isn't the only JW who says this. I find it amazing how this phrase has been programmed into every hardcore JW out there.

    When you look at the scheme of things, I'm a big disappointment.

    In other people's opinions, yes. Unfortunately, much of the JW religion functions on other people's opinions. JWs judge other JWs by the way they dress, the music they listen to, how many hours they're out in service, etc, etc. If you work at pleasing everyone else, you're going to go crazy. Try pleasing yourself for a change.

    Is Ray Franz still alive?


    What is happening internally now?

    Not much. It seems that the lawyers are running the show. There hasn't been very much major doctrine change for a long time.

  • Joyzabel

    Welcome to the board, 2evil.

    First of all let me reassure you that your questions are very normal and ones I have had. (I would like to say most of us have but I'm not speaking anyone else anymore.)

    You are at an awakening stage. Or call it a crisis of conscience stage. I understand with your background (raised a JW) you would understandably want x-Elders to give you answers. One of the hardest things you are going to discover is that you have to find the answers.

    Many people here will offer wonderful suggestions, ie read CoC, etc, etc, etc. Yes there is plenty of material out there to learn the truth about the Watchtower Organization. But along the way you will learn about yourself, humans in general and wherever else your questions will lead you. Don't be afraid of information. But be afraid of people who hide information, or hide from information or restrict others to learn.

    I wish I could tell you with simple answers what your future will be, but it is up to you. I found wonderful support and great friends from this board. Hopefully you will too as you learn and grow as a human.

    Yes, start with Crisis of Conscience, or Penton's book or Carl Olof Jonnson's books and I also recommend True Beliver by Eric Hoffer, if you want to understand the sociology of mass movements. Take time to review old threads here on recommended readings. Good stuff has been suggested and written here.

    Take it slow. Waking up is a process that needs to be done slowly and recognize all the emotions and turmoil that go with it.

    Keep us posted on how you are doing and if you have more questions.



  • undercover

    Welcome 2evil,

    As I read your posts I felt like I was reading something that I had typed. Your experience is very similar to mine. Raised in the truth, parents strong, wife accepts it without question, but I had doubts that I tried to keep buried. After 1995 though, I opened up to my doubts and starting questioning. Many of your thoughts were the same ones that I had. Over time and research I have realized that the WTS is not the "true" religion. Once that is accepted, the whys of what they do or don't do aren't as important.
    Is it for money, power or control? I'll never know. But I know this. They are not God's channel of communication therefore they no longer get money or time from me nor do they hold any power or control over me. This wasn't something that happened overnight. It took time. It took research. It took meditation and searching myself.
    Even when you're positive that the WTS is bogus, things are difficult. You're family is in, but you want out. How do you accomplish this? Disassociation? Expressing doubts to elders causing them to brand you apostate and DFing you? Quietly become inactive and losing contact with the congregation but still maintaining contact with JW family? That's what I chose. No DAing or DFing, but still shunned and whispered about by my old friends.

    Whether you realize it or not my freind, you are on the road to recovery from being enslaved by a manipulating high control group. Recovery is not instant or always steadily forward. You will slip back and question everything again. But if you are honest with yourself, completely honest, you'll see the truth about the "truth" and in time things will improve and even if your family considers you "weak" or "unspiritual", you will know deep down inside that you are free from a dangerous situation.

    Good luck on your search for real freedom.

  • Narkissos

    Hi 2evil,

    Nice to have you here.

    I think there are presently two kinds of questions struggling in your mind: (1) your own questions and (2) those which were forced into your mind by the WTBTS Inc. (such as: "isn't the preaching work being done?" -- regarless of what is actually preached).

    The first category calls for answers (and for that you have been given very good advice thus far, starting with Crisis of Conscience); the second calls for more questions to understand what really lies behind.

    I can imagine your anxiety, but really you're in no hurry. Breathe, take your time, and enjoy.


  • Inkie

    Greetings, my brother:

    Although I was not technically ?raised in the truth,? my family converted when I was an early teen. I was in ?the truth? for some 30 years. I along the way I too had doubts, but for the most part kept them to myself. You state that you have never been a ?strong witness.? May I ask you, does that mean you are not a studious witness? What I mean is, have you taken the time (a lot of time) to research the things you have been taught by the organization, even within their own publications? Some witnesses are very very studious, others are not. (This is not a judgmental remark.) Perhaps you?re intelligence suggests things to you that cause you to doubt, while your lack of study habits (if that is the case), or the lack of access to the Society?s publications prevent you from reading/studying the publications more accurately to dispel your doubts or corroborate your doubts, in which case, they?d no longer be doubts either way. My advice? My advice is the same as the apostle Paul?s. ?Make sure of all things, hold fast to what is fine.? Re-examining ?all? of your beliefs from time to time is a good thing. It hones and refines them or allows you to see them for what they truly are and to discard, if necessary. Prove to yourself the truths of the Society or the falsity of the Society. ?Make sure of all things. . . .? It?s only after you have proved them to yourself, either way, that you can have a straight path before you to walk in. Or, at least straighter than it was before. And another thing, never doubt God?s and Christ?s interest in your children despite what the actions of the parents are. I am sorry to hear of your wife?s reactions to your questions and doubts. It?s pretty normal until the wife gets to the same place you are at, if she gets there. There?s no telling. You, however, must be very tactful in dealing with your wife?tactful and loving. You must make yourself see things from her perspective so as to cause her the least bit of alarm or worry. Do not take offense (although it hurts nonetheless) at your wife?s ?apostate? comment(s). I?ve no doubt you do love your wife and that you may in fact fear losing her. I?ve no doubt you will agree that Jesus? interest in you is for your eternal welfare and not necessarily (or entirely) your present temporary welfare. He himself said ?the flesh is of no use at all.? And not to cause you any heartache, he also stated that ?he who loves (others) more then me, is not worthy of me.? That?s a paraphrase. And you do have the welfare responsibility, both spiritual and fleshly, of your children here too. No one doubts the seriousness of your wishes and hopes for your family?s eternal welfare. What is most important is that you know and remember that Jesus and his Father know this of you. You must however proceed with great caution. Be ?innocent as a dove, but cautious as a serpent.? Even in the theology of the witnesses you are the ?head of the house.? Use that trump card well with great intelligence and care. Make your statements and requests with reason. You have to tread carefully.

    May I make a suggestion? Take a course at your local college for critical thinking, logical thinking. It will help you immensely. If you cant? do that, go to your local library and check out books on critical thinking and logic. You will educate yourself and be able to apply the rules of logic and critical thinking to everything you read?everything you read. A most helpful talent to say the least.

    You make some interesting statements. You state:

    ?There are some things we can't deny: The preaching work is being accomplished. The organization cannot be stopped. Nearly every language is covered. Morales are in decay. Things have gone from bad to worse.

    Cannot the same be said of the Roman Catholic Church? or the Greek Orthodox Church? or the Church of England? or the Russian Orthodox Church? or of the various Baptist Churches? etc.? These churches have been in existence way longer than the Society, yes? All of these churches lay claim to every point you stated, yes? So, what is the difference between them and the Society?s organization? This is just a question. Nothing more.

    I agree with you in that some people are ?grasping.? Be careful. ?Make sure of all things. . . .? Yes, the ?generation? change is a big change. I agree with you; however, I should tell you also, that other changes of a more subtle nature are also very ?big? things too. I could share those with you, if you?d like.

    You ask:

    What made you SURE this was not the truth?

    My personal decision to do exactly what the apostle Paul stated, ?make sure of all things.? I also was a very studious person, collecting just about every single book, pamphlet, brochure, and other publication from the Society I could get my hands on, even from the 1800s. I checked everything I read and everything I was told with what the Society wrote. Amazing!

    Do you ever think you made the wrong choice?

    I learned that I had indeed done so.

    What about signs that the HS is working in the organization or congregation? In my experience the ?spirit? that was operating in the congregations I attended wasn?t all that ?holy.? I could tell you stories.

    Do certain experiences from the past bother you and make you reconsider your conclusions? No.

    What about

    People stay for a number of reasons. Each person is different. It doesn?t really matter whether one is a CO, DO, , or any other O.

    What about members of the writing commitee. Any of those left lately? Some brothers just seem so strong and inteligent. Makes me doubt that they could be so wrong. Remember, ?narrow is the gate, and cramped is the road leading to eternal life.? Wide and spacious is the other road. As in everyday driving, you have to read the road signs to get on and remain on the right road.


  • hillary_step

    Hi 2 Evil,

    Welcome to the asylum for the theocratically insane!

    A couple of our regular posters dredged the archives of the Board recently and put together 'Best Of' posts which answer many, if not all your questions. Search the drop down box at the top of the screen and click on 'Best Of'.

    I would suggest that you start taking a look at one of the WTS core doctrines on which it hangs its very existence, that is the date of the first fall of Jerusalem ( 607BCE ). This date is not defensible either scriptually of historically. Without this date and its attachment to 1914CE, the WTS has no grounds for claiming any special religious significance at all.

    A good starting point might be this thread : but there are many that attend to this issue.

    You ask whether the 'higher ups', truly believe all the doctrine. The members of the Governing Body that I have discussed such things with in the past fully acknowledge that there may be major changes to make in the WTS doctrine, but that the Organization knows best and will in its own time sort these problems out. Given that they have been 100% wrong in interpreting every prophetic scripture this Century, one does not hold out much hope of them getting anything else right.

    One hundred percent wrong? I am I being too harsh? Well, try to think of one prophectic interpretation of scripture the past fifty years, that is exclusive to JW's that they have actually been correct on. Remember you would be disfellowshipped as an apostate for teaching the things that the WTS believed just thirty years ago were essential, in order to gain life in the New World!

    Best regards - HS ( not the one you are thinking of )

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