by 2evil 65 Replies latest jw friends

  • Mary
    Hillary said: I would suggest that you start taking a look at one of the WTS core doctrines on which it hangs its very existence, that is the date of the first fall of Jerusalem ( 607BCE ). This date is not defensible either scriptually of historically. Without this date and its attachment to 1914CE, the WTS has no grounds for claiming any special religious significance at all.
    2evil replied: Actually, I have looked into the 607 issue before. I remember looking this up on the CD a few years ago and finding the explanation given plausable

    Welcome 2evil! Actually, the Society's explantion on the whole 607BCE date is far from plausible. They claim that all the ancient scholars purposely were in league to come up with the "false" date of 586 BCE (the date that all biblical, archaeological and historical records support), without giving any reason as to WHY they would attempt such a thing. After all, these scholars lived long before the Organization was around, so what would their motive have been?

    Ray Franz goes into alot of detail about this in Crisis of Conscience, so you should definitely read it. It was his assignment to do the background check on this date and when he found that there was no support for the 607BCE date ANYWHERE, he told his uncle Freddie Franz. According to Ray, his uncle went ballistic at the thought of having to get rid of the whole 1914 date, because without 1914, there's no 1919 date for when Jesus (supposedly) choice the "Faithful & Discreet Slave Class". To Fred, this was completely unacceptable and Ray was more or less forced to come up with some very elaborate writing trying to destroy the credibility of these scholars who said Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 BCE.

    I know how you feel, because I was born into this religion, and even though I had some doubts for many years, I still believed 100% that this was "the Truth". It was absolutely devastating to me when I slowly found out that it wasn't. Witnesses will try saying stuff like "the preaching work "proves" that the Holy Spirit is upon the Organization." This is utter nonsense. The Witnesses are certainly not the only religion that preaches---many religions have missionaries.......the Mormons preach---do they have God's Spirit? The Mormons also have alot more members than what the Witnesses do....does that mean anything?

    Your wife's refusal to discuss any of your doubts is sad but predictable. Doesn't the bible say "make sure of all things"? and "he went examining the scriptures to make sure these things were so"?? You should ask your wife: "Why can't Witnesses examine their own beliefs without being classified as "an apostate". Jesus not only questioned first century Judaism, he told them flat out what a bunch of hypocrites they were. Was Jesus viewed as an "apostate" by the Jewish leaders? You damn right he was.

  • Annanias

    2evil, FWIW, I agree with kls, take it slow. But take it deliberately. A couple of questions, your doubts are holding you back from what, exactly? You won't "progess" how, exactly?

    Okay, your wife isn't going "to open her mind a bit on her own". Now what? I know what is going on at your place, because it went on at mine. So, if your wife said, "Oh goody, honey, I didn't really want to go to the meeting every sunday anyway, and it doesn't matter if you're an 'elder' or not." Would life be good for you?

    Cuz here's what you're headed for. Not this week, nor next month, nor maybe even next year, but sooner or later something is going to happen (sickness, poverty, large spiders) and you will end up blaming yourself because of your lack of spirituality, i.e. God is punishing me! If you've been "weak" in your wife's eyes, she is going to wholeheartedly support you in that misapprehension. (Job) And then she will begin to hate herself because she wasn't "strong" enough to save her family from this sorrow (whatever it is). And what is actually happening at that point is that you two will now be back to back, with gun in hand, and you will begin a slow, inexorable, 10 pace walk away from each other.

    Now, as long as you are married to her and want to remain so, it doesn't matter how many cool discussions you have on this board, or how many Ray Franz books you read, or how many of the GB are BFing little furry animals, or how many drunken orgies the FDS have each week. The issue comes down to you, and her, i.e. how much do you want your marriage. And the peanut gallery on this site and/or at Bethel be damned.

  • cruzanheart

    2evil, welcome to the board! I was a born and raised Witness, pioneer, elder's daughter, ministerial servant's wife, and now I'm free and happy! My ministerial servant husband recognized the fallacies of the Witnesses and left them in 1989, but I continued to attend by myself and then with our two children until I proved to myself that this was NOT "Jehovah's organization," NOT a "loving brotherhood," and NOT where I wanted me and my children to be. That was in 2002. My elder father, who "professed to be of the anointed," as the phrase goes, committed suicide in 2003 because of the "loving brotherhood."

    There are many wonderful people who are Jehovah's Witnesses -- and Catholics, agnostics, Protestants, Wiccans, and athiests. I believe that God judges our hearts and knows when we are doing our best. I do NOT believe the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society has a monopoly on "truth" or an interest in their members' welfare.

    Be patient with your wife -- I was where she is and look at me now! Chris (Big Tex on this board) was patient with me, and I gave him the respect of letting him work out his relationship with God on his own. Oh sure, I asked him to go to Memorial with me or help me out with the kids when they were little, but that wasn't to lure him back to meetings.

    Lots of hugs,


  • 2evil

    Annanias, What I mean about "not progressing" is that I'm not going to "progress" within the congregation because I have these doubts. That is how I have been characterizing it with my wife. Not a lot is currently going on at my house since I hasven't brought anything up in a couple months. It will come up again though.

  • FreeWilly

    Hi 2 evil,

    A couple of things I think you should think about:

    Holy Spirit

    When Jesus was on Earth he performed miracles as did the Apostles and others.This proved God's power, through the H.S. , was backing them. Do JW's feel that the H.S. is not now operative anymore? NO! they believe that the power of the H.S. - the same H.S. that raised people from the dead - is just operating differently now. JW's, or more accurately, the Society, believes that the H.S. is evident by the "powerful truths" that are being declared by his organization. So instead of people being able to witness miracles like ressurections, healings, etc, humans now should be able to see an equally compelling unmistakable display of Jehovah's power to PROVE that Jah is behind them.

    You need to ask yourself if this has been the case? Think about it. You may already know all of the doctrinal blunders of the recent history of the Society. Pyramids, Miracle Wheat, forbidding vaccines, forbidding organ transplants, the elusive "King of the North", the missing "Generation", Armageddon in 1914, 1925, 1941 and on and on and on.

    You should really ask yourself who is directing the "spiritual food" coming from the Society? Is it the unmistakable power of the Jehovah through Holy Spirit..... or is it from the minds of Men?

    Think about it. Supposedly all of mankind will be executed because the did not recognize this source of truth (i.e. the Society). If you were Jehovah would you leave nearly all of humanity vulnerable to such a flippant, contradictory and ultimately UNREALIABLE source of doctrinal information? Can you really blame someone for concluding that the Society is not a reliable source?

    Billions will supposedly die over this. Does that make sense?

  • Dawn

    Welcome 2evil. I'm not a former elder, however, I am (and always was) an avid studier of the bible and biblical history. I was also convinced that the JW's were right. Two things were the beginning of my change of mind:

    (1) I told my father I wanted to spend some time studying the bible by itself - not any other books or material, JW or not - but just the bible. He told me I could read it all I wanted but would never understand it without the help of the Organization. I had hear this before - but for some reason, in that moment I realized that they were no different in their belief than the Mormons, who believe only the head prophet can understand the writings, or the Catholics who believed only the priests could understand the scriptures, etc etc. I knew the bible was written for US - each and every one of us, and if God wanted me to understand he would make it so.

    I started reading it on my own - and that's when I started to really see more things that showed the JW's were not completely accurate...hence #2

    2) Deut 18:20-22. This states that if a prophet speaks "in the name of the Lord" and it does not come true, then it was not a message from the Lord and they should not be listened to. In fact, the old law required death of that prophet. The organization does a play on words by saying they are not a prophet - yet they "presume to speak in the name of the Lord" just like the scripture said. And NONE of their prophecies have come true to this date. This scripture leaped out at me, and I realized they were not speaking from the holy spirit.

    2evil - it is obvious that you still believe in God and Jesus. Perhaps you could try something I did. Pray and ask God to open your eyes and show you the truth - whatever it is. Pray that each night. Jesus said that whatever we asked in his name would be given. If you sincerely ask him to lead you to the truth and open your eyes, then he will. And if you find that the truth is something other than what you thought it was - it may take a lot of courage to face that - so ask for the courage also.

  • Annanias

    Nina - question: when people ask for your nationality, do you tell them you're a Virgin? (Just kidding) You and your hubby, dodged a bullet, you are indeed special people.

    2evil - do you want to progress? I know, I know, "reaching out" is a wonderful thing, but so is Monday Night Football, Disneyworld, and a warm body on a cold night. If you feel that you must, then get busy. If you feel that you have to because of wife, "elders", mommy & daddy, or whatever other than it's something that YOU need to do, you're a fool if you go along with it. If your wife isn't going to be complete unless she's the wife of an elder, I don't know how to break this to you, but you be screwed because you're on the treadmill to hell. (I garuntee what will be comming next: "Honey, if you really loved me you'd...")

    But whatever it is, don't live a lie. That's what I did. Lost all my friends except one. But that last friend (there always seems to be one) stayed with me thru thick and thin. You might know him, his name is Jack. Jack Daniels to be precise.

  • 2evil

    No, I don't want to progress in that way. And my wife doesn't care about being the wife of an elder. She just wants to feel that we are all doing what we should be doing. See, she has a distorted view of other families. She believes that those families that are perfect JW cookie cutter families are really happy. Though she grew up in the "truth" her family was never regular out in service, had a family study or any "spiritual" activities. She never had this so this is what she wants and cannot have because of my views and distrust of the society. I can deal with upsetting anyone. That isn't the problem. I don't want to LOSE my family. Either my immediate family or my extended.

  • Annanias

    2evil, first of all (and take this with a grain of salt) forget about your "extended" family. They are as much your "family" as the IRS. As long as you don't need any help, they'll be there to help you. As long as you don't need any support, they will be your most ardent supporters. As long as you don't think for yourself, they will consider you smart. Remember that old joke, "Hi, we're from the government, we're here to help." Well....

    "Though she grew up in the "truth" her family was never regular out in service, had a family study or any "spiritual" activities. She never had this so this is what she wants and cannot have because of my views and distrust of the society."

    Task, read the italicized part 10 times. You've already got the guilt bug. Jeff Foxworthy did a bit about how wives just naturally "train" their husbands, "The other night my wife and I were reading in bed and she told me that it was getting warm in the room. You know, I was half way to the window before I realized it. The next day she was on the phone with her mother, 'Oh yes, mom, Jeff's comming along fine.'"

    Nina would probably be a good person to talk to about what changed her mind as a wife. For me, the mistake was that I accepted the guilt, instead of deciding what was and wasn't going to be enough.

  • 2evil

    I hear you, but I as I said in an earlier post, I can't feel guily anymore. I only began doubting because they changed "the truth". Not my fault... It's a simple fact, though, if I believed everything hook line and sinker she could have what she thinks she wants.

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