by frankiespeakin 106 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Maf,
Good question:
Whose thoughts? Does the person thinking us exist?We for the most part atribute ownership of thoughts to this imaginary "I". But is there any proof that thoughts can belong to anything. It is all concepts we have not questioned enough but just accepted for the most part.
Frankie
We for the most part atribute ownership of thoughts to this imaginary "I".
I wouldn't necessarily call it ownership, but thoughts by definition have an origin in a thinker. We might not be thoughts, but if we are, we are by definition thought by somebody.
Are you just having fun with this thread, or are you really worrying about whether or not you exist?
Maf,
I'm just questioning what I am. The more I do the more I see my previous concepts are based on assumptions. If we stopped assumming what would we find?
As for worrying about if I exist,, I'm not worried just curious,,and trying to see thru the assumptions.
Should anything exist? is the question. 'Should' is the critical word in this question. Investigate directly within yourself to locate the one who would use the word 'should' or any other concept for that matter. Who is this entity that tosses out ideas to consider? Is that entity real or just a bundle of ideas which are clung to giving oneself a sense of identity which is believed in but seldom questioned as to whether or not IT actually exists. If you can find such an entity existing in reality, rather than as a temporary idea, then the question becomes more meaningful.
Descarte's statement 'I think therefore I am' is one to consider carefully. Think about this: doesn't there need to be 'amness' before thinking can occur? Isn't there a direct 'knowing' that you exist prior to thought? There is simply a 'knowing' that you are, with no thought needed. Experiment for yourself - deny you exist by actually trying to believe 'I don't exist'. Even if you convince yourself you don't exist what is it that lets you know that you don't exist?
Reverse Descarte's statement to read 'I am, therefore I think', and then ask 'Who am I?' and the possibility for a life altering change in perspective lies at your feet.
poppers
Popper,
ask 'Who am I?' and the possibility for a life altering change in perspective lies at your feet.
I think you are talking about awakening or waking up. Have you been awakened?
Yes, what I'm talking about is awakening to what you actually are. Some call this 'enlightenment' but I don't care for that term because it carries with it a lot of conceptual baggage that people usually misinterpret. In truth, there are no 'enlightened people' - that implies a separate 'someone' who can become enlightened, when in fact there is no separate entity apart from awareness. Instead, there is a direct knowing what I actually am in reality - pure awareness, beyond space and time. That 'thing' which arises in awareness and is known as 'poppers' is just a temporary phenomenon, composed of ideas which were clung to as being 'me'. Being exists prior to 'poppers', and That's what I am, and That's what you are - this is not something I have accepted as who I am but it is the direct 'knowing' ItSelf.
poppers
Poppers,
Very interesting,,
What's your take on the concept that you can become awaken by being in contact with awaken ones,,and be awakened by things they say or do or by some type of projection of awareness that come from them.
1.To be conscious is to be conscious of.....something.
2.The law of identity: To be is to be.....something.
3.Existence IS identity.
4.Existence differentiates a "thing" from nothing.
Existence and Identity are axiomatic concepts. They cannot be further reduced or defined.
Incidentally, a consciousness with nothing to be conscious "of" is a contradiction in terms. Before it could identify itself AS consciousness, it had to be conscious of something. If that which you claim to perceive does not exist, what you possess is not consciousness.
Existence and identity are not attributes of existents, they ARE the existents!
The unreal does not exist; the unreal is merely that negation of existence which is the content of a human consciousness when it attempts to ABANDON reason.
There is no 'transmission' from awakened ones to unawakened ones - that implies separate entities. There are no separate entities, only awareness - there is no 'my' awareness or 'your' awareness, just awareness. What You are actually, pure awareness, always is; however, what You are is obscured by what you believe yourself to be. You are already awake but don't know it. When such a 'person' hears an awakened one speak there can be a strong resonance with what is heard - this is awareness recognizing ItSelf in an apparent 'other'. There can be dramatic shifts in perspective at this point, and the ego entity drops completely but this is rare. What usually happens is a series of brief recognitions into what you actually are followed by periods where you slip back into an ego bound perspective. When ego has been recognized as returning then awareness can be redirected back into onto ItSelf. Through regular resting in what you are, pure awareness, the ego structure is further weakened and eventually collapses. At this point, identification shifts from ego to awareness.
Ego will never be completely gone after it collapses, it just won't be believed in anymore as being who you are. It's like the ego hangs around in the background but little attention is given to it because it's known to be a ficticious entity. Just like in a dream, when you wake up in the morning the dream character loses its ability to sway you one way or another because it is seen to be a fiction of the mind that was created by the 'little me' while asleep.
Instead, awareness is in the foreground rather than being obscured by the ego. When ego resurfaces it is immediately spotted for what it is and it recedes again to the background. In this new perspective, everything is simply seen without a conceptual framework. All concepts are stored in the memory and are of the past. This perspective, however, takes place in the eternal now and is one of great peace and serenity. However, emotions and thoughts will continue as before but they will no longer be resisted, they just flow through unobstructed. The only thing which resists anything else is the ego, and since ego is no longer believed in everything is allowed to be here, now.
Those practices and incidents which you are referring to indicate the arising of brief (sometimes permanent) periods which stop the mind and ego so that what you actually are can be 'seen' - and That is always here, just waiting to be noticed.
Consciousness is not a 'thing' in the conventional sense - it cannot be examined by an outside entity, for nothing lies outside of consciousness. For most, there is consciousness of 'something' - it is consciousness which illumines everything. Without consciousness nothing could be known. But consciousness can be consciously recognized when all else drops away - it is Self-evident. This is a paradox that one struggles with when attempting to explain That which is beyond concept through concepts. The mind will never understand this and will throw up one argument after another, but through direct investigation This is directly 'seen' by the seeing ItSelf.
