Hello Everyone . . .(Questions)

by Frobrisher 52 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jwbot
    All love is conditional. God loves conditionally. Unconditional love is obsession, or mental illness. In all fairness to your family and friends, from their point of view, are showing love for you by shunning you. It may not be the view you subscribe to, but I don't take the shunning I get as hate for me.

    It is insensitive for you to say that to me because you do not know me. And you have effectively ignored the rest of the good points I brought up.

    I have done nothing wrong, and I did not even get disfellowshipped yet they have "gone beyond what is written" effectively they have SOUGHT to shun me. Is that love? If that is their love, I do not want a part of it. Nor will I ever feel their behavior towards me is warrented, deserved, respectful or loving, far from it. I feel what they are doing is inhuman and hurtful and I will not be forced to think for a MOMENT that I deserve it. Anyone who I have ever told anything of my past thinks what they are doing is absolutely crazy. It is certainly not love. Some people can not believe my mother, father, sisters or brother would do such a thing...you know why? Becuase those people grew up in normal, loving households...of course they can't imagine their family doing that...these are the people who are my new family until my own family gets a clue!

  • seattleniceguy

    Hey Frobrisher,

    I wanted to see if different points of view were accepted, or if it had a one track mind of it's own

    Different views most certainly are accepted. Sometimes they generate strong reactions, but hey, that's what community discourse is all about.

    I just wanted to respond a bit to your points on unconditional love. When a friend first started telling me that the Witness culture is based on conditional love, I said exactly the same thing as you. But I've since learned much more about psychological and emotional health, and what exactly conditional love is. Conditional love as practiced among the Witnesses is inhibitive of growth at the best, and manipulative at the worst. Now, mind you, true unconditional love is very rare. I'm not saying the Witnesses are the only group that practice this - sadly, many fit the bill. It is also a cycle that passes itself down in the broader culture.

    To illustrate the problems with conditional love, imagine a father that is a lawyer. From the time his son is very young, he makes it clear that he expects his son to follow in his footsteps. He rewards the son when the son plays "junior lawyer." As his son enters high school, the father tries to discourage the son from pursuits that might distract from his eventually becoming a lawyer.

    Now let's imagine that the son begins to realize that he has no interest in becoming a lawyer. He wants to be a musician. The father is dismayed. He withdraws the smiling approval. He refuses to pay for college. The son is now faced with an ultimatum: lose the respect and love of my father, or do what I truly want to do. The son knows if he just signs up for that Advanced Placement Debate class, he can have the approval once again, but he begins to resent feeling manipulated in this way.

    The sad part of this is that none of it is necessary. The father is selfish to demand his son follow a prescribed path. A truly loving parent would help the child to flourish in whatever field the child was well-suited for. By his actions, the father has subjected the son to emotional pain - who wants to choose between to terrible options in an ultimatum situation, when the situation that caused the ultimatum is entirely man-made and preventable?

    In more extreme cases, a person may be under the compulsion of conditional love along many dimensions, such that they do not even realize it. The net effect is that they are compelled into a box that is not tailored to help them grow personally, but to suit the arbitrary whims of the person who supposedly loves them. When you think about the growth prospects of children raised in conditionally loving families, as opposed to unconditionally loving ones, the difference is astounding.

    I encourage you to read more on this subject, as it has major implications. One really great book is "The Road Less Traveled," by M. Scott Peck. I think you'll find the first 50 pages fascinating, and they provide a good introduction to human growth and love.

    Hope that helps!

  • seattleniceguy

    Oh, and just a quick suggestion since you mentioned having your post "eaten"...when you write a long post, you might want to select all and copy it all to the clipboard before submitting, so that if something goes wrong you haven't lost it. I've lost more than one post before, and man, it can be irrititating! :-)


  • jwbot

    Seattleniceguy: I appreciate your post on unconditional love, and it made me feel better. See, that was exactly what I was talking about but sometimes I can not articulate well enough.

  • seattleniceguy

    Hey jwbot...Sorry to hear about your experiences. And I agree with your statement that normal people can hardly believe the shunning policy. I've told a few people about it, and they are truly blown away. "How could someone possibly put a religion before their family?" they ask in shock.

    Also, I have an unconditional crush on your avatar...


  • Nosferatu
    Also I’d like to ask the following questions, just out of curiosity, feel free to answer or ignore, cause they are personal questions:

    YaY! A quiz!

    Who here thinks they are Jehovah God?

    I'm almost Jehovah God, just give me some time. Until I reach "Jehovah God" status, feel free to worship me.

    Who here thinks they are Jesus Christ?


    Who here thinks they are of the anointed?

    I'm definately one of the anointed. I'm too smart not to be!

    Who here thinks they are going to heaven, but are not necessarily anointed?

    N/A: I'm anointed.

    As for your concerns with what we do there (ie bitch about the WTS, the JWs), we weren't free to talk about them negatively when we were in. We had no choice but to say good things about everything, and Jehovah's org was so wonderful and full of flowers, rainbows, paradise erf and herds of tame lions. Well, I'll tell you something, the generation of 1914 ended (a doctrine that I was taught from childhood along with lemons being the color yellow) and neither Paradise Erf nor Armageddon has showed up. It didn't in 1975 either. How many times should I let myself be fooled by the same person? I was an ideot to believe in the Troof, as I was an ideot to believe my ex hadn't cheated on me.

    No more lies, and don't fxxxing tell me that it's the light getting brighter. As long as the light continues to get bright, lemons will continue to be every color, except yellow.

  • Frobrisher
    All love is conditional. God loves conditionally. Unconditional love is obsession, or mental illness. In all fairness to your family and friends, from their point of view, are showing love for you by shunning you. It may not be the view you subscribe to, but I don't take the shunning I get as hate for me.

    It is insensitive for you to say that to me because you do not know me. And you have effectively ignored the rest of the good points I brought up.

    Sorry, I just have this thing about "unconditional" love. Your right I wasn't aware of your situation, but I think my advice still applies. This is their thinking, right or wrong. They seem to have taken it upon themselves to DA you. Don't take the fact that you found a consensus of people who think something is right or wrong, as something to base your thinking on what is right or wrong. I can find people who think sex with animals is okay (sorry, just needed some shock value for effect), or people who think it's wrong to eat cheese. My point is, you most likely will not change your families minds, make your mind up about what you want to do, and accept the fact that you'll have to do it without them in your life. Don't hate them, pity them if you like, but they do this according to a belief sturcture that they subscribe to, I don't think there is any malice on their part involved. Best of luck to ya.

  • undercover

    I was raised a JW and have not had any real disasters befall me because of it. But...I have spent half my life trying to live by the standards of which I was taught through the WTS. It was always difficult, sometimes impossible. I never felt like I was spiritual enough or self-sacrificing enough. No matter what I did, I felt like I wasn't worthy enough. When the doubts that I had kept suppressed for years finally forced themselves out to be dealt with I realized that the WTS and JWs were not God's earthly organization. One of my first questions when I realized I was duped was, "did they purposely lie or have they convinced themselves they are God's spokeman?". Over time I have come to the conclusion that the WTS puposely misleads and seeks to control people so as to not let their empire crumble.

    I do not hate JWs. I have known many fine, fine people who are JWs. Many of them are people who love God and want to do the right thing. Unfortunately they have been fooled as I once was. I can't hate them for that. Many of them are quite content at being JWs. That is their right to do so. I don't begrudge them or ridicule them. If that's what they want, more power to them. But because they are faithful to the JW teachings, they follow corporate policy and shun people and judge people based on what the WTS tells them. I haven't cut them off from my life. They have cut me off. I chose to not worship as they do, so they treat me as beneath them and as a "worldly" person. That's their right to do so, but I still don't hate them. Those that act that way, I pity. It's too bad that they don't see what they've become.

    As far as the WTS, I dislike and resent it as an entity. Not all the thousands of people who make it run, because most of them are the same as the rank and file, they have been fooled. But those in charge, those that know what they are doing, those that know that they are misleading and giving false hope and taking peoples money, they deserve whatever evil may befall them. I do not hate them, but I utterly disrespect them and hope that they somehow are exposed and brought down from their ivory towers and made to somehow pay for all of their lies and deceit.

  • jwbot

    Frobrisher: I never said I hated them. In fact I love them and I am always here waiting for them in case they choose to come around...

  • Grog

    Well there have been many replys to this post alot of them good so i'm going to add my two cents.

    One thing that really pisses me off is the fact that people think its a choice.

    I have a really good friend who is a Witness.... she was raised a witness since birth and almost 100% of her friends and family are witnesses. We have had countless talks about the witnesses and she has many doubts about them. She doesn't think and organization should tell you what you can and can't read and look at etc... Anyways my point is that becuase EVERYONE she knows in life is a witness she can't break away from it. She would have to give up all of what she knows... which is just way to hard for some people to do.

    Her friends and family... (all baptized JW's) would want to have nothing to do with someone who leaves the "truth"

    I really really dislike that about the witnesses...

    Ok now on to my second point...

    I personally think that unconditional love and god are exactly the same and can be interchanged.

    Teaching children that god can have his feelings hurt.. and not love you anymore is a terrible thing. God is not a vindictive parent.

    I'll answer your questions too

    Who here thinks they are Jehovah God?

    I think we are all God goding.. All parts of god expierencing itself.. I think you are god just as I amWho here thinks they are Jesus Christ?

    Not I... the JCannon response was funny though..

    Who here thinks they are of the anointed?

    I think the whole annointed thing is blarneyWho here thinks they are going to heaven, but are not necessarily anointed?

    I'm not to sure personally what happens after death but I'm pretty sure god has it taken care of. What I belive about doesn't matter to much in the grand scheme of things.

    And as a side note.. the reason I personally have resentment and a little hostility with the JWs is that my sister was molested and nothing was done about it. She was too much of an emotional wreck to report it to anyone and The Elders just decided to slip it under the rug. And to top it off... her friends house where it happened at, her parents decided she was bad association afterwards.

    Sorry for Rant


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