Did Jesus Condone "Pederasty"?

by DevonMcBride 23 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • XQsThaiPoes
    XQsThaiPoes

    THe law of Lex Scatavia made it illegal for a boy to have sex with an older woman or a man because it was considered to ruin their man hood. THe boy would have to be a foriegner or a slave and still that was a grey area. So I doubt a roman army captain would be caught with a child unless the child was taken captive on a campaign.

    And btw consideringing Jesus hung out with prositutes and taxcollectors and this man was a gentile officer with higher social standing what make you think jesus would be against his pedophilia to the point of not healing the victim? (I am not defending pedophiles I am just saying things were diffenrent).

  • Doubtfully Yours
    Doubtfully Yours

    What?!

    Only in a SICK mind does that concept fit!

    DY

  • Corvin
    Corvin
    I seem to recall hearing that this was a common practice among Romans.

    While, sex play between older teacher and younger student was fairly common, the act of sodomy was very much frowned on. That was a no-no.

  • metatron
    metatron

    Infanticide was a common practise in Rome and other places - not necessarily for sacrifice but for other reasons.

    Early Christians objected to the practise and often rescued the abandoned infants - this has been cited in today's

    anti-abortion movement in support of their cause. I understand that in rare cases some Christians had odd names

    referring to refuse or garbage because of their origin i.e. where they were found. Some may have wanted a son

    instead of a daughter, as is done with abortions in some Asian nations today.

    Whatever the law, Tiberius thought nothing of having very young girls raped, to execute them as non-virgins

    because of the 'treason' of their parents. I can't find the reference to the particular festival that involved children

    but, again, we are talking about a very brutal time period, however noble they claimed to be.

    metatron

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    The fatal flaw of this explanation is that it doesn't take into account polysemy -- that is, the very well-known fact that words can have several meanings which may be etymologically related yet remain semantically distinct. Adding the meanings instead of choosing between them according to the context is a very common error called "overtranslation".

    The Greek word pais, as its Hebrew equivalent na`ar, means either a child (or a teenager; "my pais" being used as an equivalent of "my son" or "my daughter"), or a servant (not necessarily young). In either case it doesn't imply sexual connotations (nor excludes them).

    For the meaning child (without sexual connotations): Matthew 2:16; 17:18; 21:15; Luke 2:43; 8:51,54; 9:42; Acts 20:12.

    For the meaning servant (without sexual connotations): Matthew 12:18; 14:2; Luke 1:54,69; 12:45; 15:26; Acts 3:13,26; 4:25,27,30.

    A sexual relationship between the master of Matthew 8 (and parallels) and his pais is of course possible but would have to be read into the story.

  • metatron
    metatron

    it's hard to argue greek with someone named Narkissos

    metatron

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    If someone medically treats a murderer, a paedophile, a jw, they aren't condoning it - they're giving to both the good and bad alike.

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    This is very interesting. I don't have anything specific to add as to what was going on with the captain and his well-loved slave, but I will note that culturally back then, "eunuchs" had a social place in society and apparently it was linked with the affection of some sort, apparently non-sexual, that the eunuch would have for his master and that role would often be given to those in charge of the house or "court officials". Thus even in ancient times a "court official" is often exchangeable for a eunuch.

    In that regard, I think we need to understand that perhaps a non-sexual but loving relationship did exist between a eunuch and a master. Cyrus was known to be insistent only to hire eunuchs because of this emotional devotion of the eunuch. But particularly in the case of Cyrus' choice of Nehemiah as the secretary to the Jews at first and then later his becoming the chief "cup bearer" to Xerxes. Nehemiah was a eunuch. But Jewish traditional folklore reflect that he was in love with Artaxerxes. We can safely assume there might have been a "romance" of sorts here, but an aesexual one.

    In some versions of Nehemiah, for instance, when he is asking Artaxerxes to return home they depict him as sitting on his lap and batting his eyes at the king, clearly in an effeminate manner. This traditional view of Nehemiah being effeminate and in love with the king, found its way into a very popular adaptation of this story in the "Book of Esther" where the effeminate character of Nehemiah, the cupbearer eunuch in love with the king became two characters; the beautiful woman Esther and her "cousin" Mordecai who was a man of high office. This was done since this part of the Persian history was suppressed for political reasons since Xerxes was claiming to be his son "Artaxerxes" when they were really the same king.

    At any rate, it would seem these times and even among Jews, a relationship between a castrated male and someone who was his master was common, but would not necessarily have to be an overt sexual one, even though in some cases they certainly were!

    The social state of the "eunuch" and his behavior and role in society, therefore, might be considered as part of this picture and perhaps the relationship was acknowledged but it was one that was non-sexual. In that regard, Jesus was a "eunuch" himself and his relationship with the apostle John, "the one he loved" was such a relationship. An open "bonding" of two men in substitution of a woman for the most part. That is, the eunuchw as not expected to fall in love with a woman but understandly would fall in love with another man and have a special relationship with that man, but it needn't be expressed in an inappropriate sexual way. Thus this servant to the captain could have been similar to the implied relationship between Xerxes and Nehemiah, who folklorically was in love with the king.

    Thanks for this interesting discovery about this term. For sure, suppression of even "understanding" special relationships between persons of the same sex, whether overtly sexual or not, is going to get resistance in our puritanital influenced culture.

    It would appear that overt homosexual behavior is condemned in scripture, but not some forms of expression and relationship between men or a servant and master that some in our coulture would consider homosexual.

    For instance, what about two Christian men, who consider themselves to be gay, are in love with each other, who buy a house together and hug and kiss each other in the same bed but for Christian reasons insist upon keeping their clothes on. That's technically a non-sexual relationship, would Jesus condemn it? Would God? In the meantime, there certainly is some cultural reference of these homosexual "romances" and relationships, such as Jesus with John, but apparently that were sexless.

    ???

    Thanks for this interesting discussion.

    P.S. Yes, obviously the Book of Esther, being an adaptation of Nehemiah to cover up for historical revisionism would not be an "inspired" book. As proof, the original version of thebook from the LXX has Esther married to "Artaxerxes" instead of Xerxes, which is how Josephus also tells the story and does not include Esther in the books he considered sacred to the Jews in the 1st century. Esther was not admitted into the canon until the third century A.D. Nehemiah was a eunuch and can be seen as the Jewish cupbearer with Xerxes and Darius as well as with Artaxerxes all over Persepolis, proving he was much honored and apparently loved by Artaxerxes/Xerxes. Nehemiah's favored presence with "Xerxes" and later "Artaxerxes" is part of the evidence that they were the same king. The Persian kings customarily changed their names when they became king.

  • dh
    dh
    which in this situation implies a young boy kept for sexual pleasures by his adult owner.

    i can't speak for rome or the circumstances surrounding that specific event, but even today in parts of the world it is an accepted, or at lease practiced aspect of some societies, that wealthy men keep young boys/young men for sexual pleasures. this is not uncommon.

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    DH,

    It WAS uncommon in Rome...as has been pointed out. A centurion, as in our story, would have had several personal slaves...being they traveled together and were in close contact, and depended on one another, it would NOT be uncommon for a close paternal relationship to develop.

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