The 5th Gospel (page 2)

peacefulpete

Gen 24:16 in Hebrew says, "And the girl was good of form very a virgin man not knowing her."

I'm going to bed.

Here are two very well written Web-Pages -- one of which shows clearly that several Rabbis believed that Isaiah Chapter 53 was a prophecy about The Messiah, and the other explains why Isaiah 53 must refer to The Messiah and NOT Israel:

http://www.chaim.org/rabbis.htm

http://www.chaim.org/nation.htm

Also, here are some quotes from a Web-Page which shows that some Rabbis also believed that Isaiah 9:6 was referring to The Messiah:

http://www.chosen-people.com/gotmessiah/docs/gotmessiah.html
Isaiah 9:6, 7 (9:5, 6 in Hebrew) speaks of a special Son who will be born to the Jewish people:
"For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder, and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of Daviid and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."
Regardless of how one translates this verse into English, the Jewish TARGUM JONATHAN says this Son is Messiah:
"...A child has been born to us, a son has been given to us...and his name has been called from of old, Wonderful counsellor, Mighty God, He who lives for ever, the Anointed one (or Messiah) in whose days peace shall increase upon us."
MOSES ben MAIMON, popularly called Maimonides (1135-1204), who was the author of Mishneh Torah and considered the great Talmudist of his day, also says Isaiah 9:6 (9:5 in Hebrew) refers to Messiah:
"...you have not considered the pre-eminence of the Messiah, the manner of his appearance, and the marks whereby he is to be identified...Six appellations were divinely conferred upon him as the following passage indicates:'For a child is born unto us, and a son is given unto us, and the government is upon his shoulder, and he is called Pele, Yoetz, El, Gibbor, Abiad, Sar Shalom.' (Iaaiah 9:5)."
This revealing statement by Maimonides is taken from his "Egeret Teman" (Letter to Yemen).
The Jewish MIDRASH DEVARIM (Deuteronomy), also says Isaiah 9:6 speaks of Messiah. Rabbi Samuel, the son of Nachman, says:
"Jacob replied; 'Let my Lord, I pray thee, pass over before his servant' (Genesis 33:14.) What is the meaning of, 'I pray thee, pass over?? Jacob said to him: 'I have yet to supply the messiah, of whom it is said: "Unto us a child is born."'"

According to Lexicons, the first meaning of the Hebrew word "almah" is virgin:

Strong's Number: 5959

hml(

Original Word		Word Origin
	hml(		from (05958)
Transliterated Word		Phonetic Spelling
	`almah		al-maw'
Parts of Speech		TWOT
	Noun Feminine		1630b
Definition
	virgin, young woman of marriageable age maid or newly married ++++ There is no instance where it can be proved that this word designates a young woman who is not a virgin.

Translated Words KJV (7) - damsels, 1; maid, 2; virgin, 4;

NAS (7) - girl, 1; maid, 1; maiden, 1; maidens, 3; virgin, 1;

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peacefulpete

Go and read the link provided you a few comments ago about Is 9. You seem to have ignored the last comment that shows that the verse in question most certainly shows that the word almah in Isaiah 7 refers to a young woman already pregnant. No matter that translations have used virgin rather than maiden or young woman in some instances the word does not carry sexual connotation. Of course many young women are virgins but not all virgins are young women. Hence the need for two words. It is only a logical conclusion that if the author intended to mean virgin he would have used the word that meant virgin not young woman who may or may not be a virgin.

I am no more impressed with late Jewish interpretation of the passage than I am with Christian. I can find opinion and interpretation for just about anything. We as former JWs ought to understand the danger of allowing an interpretation to be authoritative beyond the evidence.

UnDisfellowshipped

I did read your Thread.

I'll comment more soon.

peacefulpete

Ok but I understand how much you have vested in this topic, so I'm not unsympathetic to your determination to prove that I'm wrong. It takes a great many such discussions and lots of time spent in self reflection for it to penetrate. I've been there.

UnDisfellowshipped

Does the word "betulah" always mean an actual virgin?

What about Joel 1:8?

Joel 1:8: Lament like a virgin [betulah] girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.

Joel 1:8 says that a "betulah" has a husband.

My point is, the Hebrew word "betulah" did not always mean an actual virgin who had never had relations with a man.

Here is a quote taken from http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/09-01/almah.htm :

Therefore, even if the prophet Isaiah had used the word betulah, it could have been argued that he did not intend to say that this woman had never had sexual relations with a man.

peacefulpete

Yes that has been argued by Jews for Jesus and others determined to beleive that Isaiah was referring to Jesus. And It is reduced to grasping at straws. Joel for instance is saying that YHWH is going to curse the people by separating them from the fruits of their labor. Crops and fruit trees were prevented from giving yield just like the virgin bride has no opportunity to be fruitful. This and one or two other passages could arguably be used to say that betulah was used at times to mean 'childless' and not techincally virginal. However even here there is no necessity to understand these couple verses as diverging from the standard meaning of "virgin". Good luck with your continuing research.

UnDisfellowshipped

PeacefulPete said:

I understand how much you have vested in this topic, so I'm not unsympathetic to your determination to prove that I'm wrong. It takes a great many such discussions and lots of time spent in self reflection for it to penetrate. I've been there.

I desire truth more than anything else.

The Bible says that Jesus is The Truth. So, Jesus (whom I believe in with all my soul, heart, and mind) would want people to search for and find all of the facts and all of the truth about the Bible.

According to John, Jesus also stated that the Scriptures are "The Truth", so since the Scriptures are "The Truth", they should stand up against any and all honest scrutiny and investigation and examination.

Also, the Bible itself encourages people to carefully examine things to discover all the facts:

Acts 17:11: These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

1st Thessalonians 5:21: Test all things; hold fast what is good.

1st John 4:1: B eloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Proverbs 14:15: The simple believes every word, But the prudent considers well his steps.

Matthew 24:4: And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.

Yerusalyim

One thing you're all not considering...the virginity of the maiden can be presumed.

In the long run I agree, though, it's not necessarily about Jesus...and Isaiah 56, I think it's just as good a description of those killed in the holocaust as it is of Jesus.

peacefulpete

Yerusalem see my 4th comment above.

The 5th Gospel

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