The 5th Gospel

by UnDisfellowshipped 29 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Isaiah is sometimes called "The Fifth Gospel", and with good reason.

  I just wanted to post some of the wonderful prophecies about Jesus the Messiah in the Book of Isaiah:

  Isaiah 7:14: Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

  Isaiah 9:6-7: For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

  Isaiah 52: 13 - 53:12: Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently; He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high. Just as many were astonished at you, so His visage was marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men; so shall He sprinkle many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths at Him; for what had not been told them they shall see, and what they had not heard they shall consider. W ho has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the L ord been revealed? For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; and when we see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him. He is despised and rejected by men, a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the L ord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people He was stricken. And they made His grave with the wicked--but with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth. Yet it pleased the L ord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the L ord shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
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  peacefulpete

  Isaiah 9 is it about Jesus?
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  peacefulpete

  The authors of the Jesus stories scoured the OT and other sources for bits and pieces of text to recast as prophecies. They used these materials as the framework for the new narrative. Matthew was the most notorious for his extraction of words out of context for reuse. They meant no deception in this, they like many since have felt that the sacred texts held secret messages that needed to be perceived with spiritual eyes. Much like the WT today identifies itself and it's doctrine in dozens of disconnected passages.

  The virgin birth is a classic example. The competing Mystery cults all had some miraculous divine birth for their savior characters so second generation Christians added the miracle birth to the story of Mark (UrMark), feeling it most certainly was appropriate for the 'true' savior to equal the rivals. The Isaiah 7 maiden verse was adroitly squeezed out of context and slightly reworded to add weight to the new legend. (Isaiah's wife was not a virgin but a young woman.) Later generations, unfamiliar with the nature of myth, interpreted these mythologies as historical accounts.

  Similarly Isaiah's suffering Servant chapters that describe the Jewish author's perception of his people's history and plight have nothing to do with Jesus. It was only through creative use of Greek translation and selective extraction that the early Christian authors 'discovered' the Jesus story fortold in them.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Hi PeacefulPete, how are you?

  PeacefulPete said:

  The Isaiah 7 maiden verse was adroitly squeezed out of context and slightly reworded to add weight to the new legend. (Isaiah's wife was not a virgin but a young woman.)

  It was NOT Matthew who "re-worded" the text. Read the Septuagint Version of Isaiah 7:14:

  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel.

  PeacefulPete said:

  Similarly Isaiah's suffering Servant chapters that describe the Jewish author's perception of his people's history and plight have nothing to do with Jesus. It was only through creative use of Greek translation and selective extraction that the early Christian authors 'discovered' the Jesus story fortold in them.

  Take a look at the Septuagint Version of Isaiah Chapter 53:

  1 O Lord, who has believed our report? and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 2 We brought a report as of a child before him; he is as a root in a thirsty land: he has no form nor comeliness; and we saw him, but he had no form nor beauty. 3 But his form was ignoble, and inferior to that of the children of men; he was a man in suffering, and acquainted with the bearing of sickness, for his face is turned from us: he was dishonoured, and not esteemed. 4 He bears our sins, and is pained for us: yet we accounted him to be in trouble, and in suffering, and in affliction. 5 But he was wounded on account of our sins, and was bruised because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and by his bruises we were healed. 6 All we as sheep have gone astray; every one has gone astray in his way; and the Lord gave him up for our sins. 7 And he, because of his affliction, opens not his mouth: he was led as a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is dumb, so he opens not his mouth. 8 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken away from the earth: because of the iniquities of my people he was led to death. 9 And I will give the wicked for his burial, and the rich for his death; for he practised no iniquity, nor craft with his mouth. 10 The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his stroke. If ye can give an offering for sin, your soul shall see a long-lived seed: 11 the Lord also is pleased to take away from the travail of his soul, to shew him light, and to form him with understanding; to justify the just one who serves many well; and he shall bear their sins. 12 Therefore he shall inherit many, and he shall divide the spoils of the mighty; because his soul was delivered to death: and he was numbered among the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and was delivered because of their iniquities.

  There is no way of denying it. Isaiah Chapter 53 is describing a Man being sacrificed for the sins of all people and bearing those sins in His body.
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  Double Edge

  The authors of the Jesus stories scoured the OT and other sources for bits and pieces of text to recast as prophecies. They used these materials as the framework for the new narrative. Matthew was the most notorious for his extraction of words out of context for reuse.

  Well, I guess that's one theory. Another could be IT REALLY HAPPENED!
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Also, there are some more Verses in Isaiah about the Messiah, which I did not yet post, so here they are:

  Isaiah 11:1-10 (NKJV): T here shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots. The Spirit of the L ord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the L ord . His delight is in the fear of the L ord , and He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, nor decide by the hearing of His ears; but with righteousness He shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, and faithfulness the belt of His waist.

  " The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the L ord as the waters cover the sea.

  " And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek Him, and His resting place shall be glorious."

  Isaiah 42:1-9 (NKJV): "B ehold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. He will not cry out, nor raise His voice, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed He will not break, and smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth. He will not fail nor be discouraged, till He has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands shall wait for His law." Thus says God the L ord , who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, who gives breath to the people on it, and spirit to those who walk on it: " I, the L ord , have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, as a light to the Gentiles, to open blind eyes, to bring out prisoners from the prison, those who sit in darkness from the prison house. I am the L ord , that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to carved images. Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them."

  Isaiah 61:1-3 (NKJV): "T he Spirit of the Lord G od is upon Me, because the L ord has anointed Me to preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the L ord , and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn, to console those who mourn in Zion, to give them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they may be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the L ord , that He may be glorified."
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  peacefulpete

  Isaiah 41: 8-10 But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, seed of Abraham My friend- You whom I drew from the ends of the earth and called from its far corners, to whom I said: You are My servant; I chose you, I have not rejected you-fear not, for I am with you, be not frightened, for I am your CREATOR; I strengthen you and I help you, I uphold you with My victorious right hand.

  Isaiah 42:1-8 This is My servant, whom I uphold, My chosen one, in whom I delight. I have put My spirit upon him, he shall teach the true way to the nations. He shall not cry out or shout aloud, or make his voice heard in the streets. He shall not break even a bruised reed, or snuff out even a dim wick. He shall bring forth the true way. He shall not grow dim or be bruised till he has established the true way on earth; and the coastlands shall await his teaching.

  Thus said the ETERNAL, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and what it brings forth, who gave breath to the people upon it and life to those who walk thereon: I the ETERNAL, in My grace, have summoned you and I have grasped you by the hand. I created you, and appointed you a covenant people, a light of nations, opening eyes deprived of light, rescuing prisoners from confinement, from the dungeon those who sit in the darkness. I am the ETERNAL, that is My name; I will not yield My glory to another, nor My renown to idols.

  The book of Isaiah clearly identifies the sufferning servant as Israel as a covenant people. Whether you personally agree with the description of this servant given by the author, his words ought not be stretched to fit a different agenda. I also made clear in my above comment that the Gospel writers took advantage of the poor translating in the Greek form of the OT. The Isaiah 7 virgin passage is a clear example. If the text had not been translated as it was undoubtedly another verse would have been found to support the miraculous birth tradition recently established. BTW reading the next verse in Is 7 has this son of a maiden needing to learn to choose good over bad. Hardly consistant with the vision most have of Jesus.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  PeacefulPete said:

  The book of Isaiah clearly identifies the sufferning servant as Israel as a covenant people. Whether you personally agree with the description of this servant given by the author, his words ought not be stretched to fit a different agenda. I also made clear in my above comment that the Gospel writers took advantage of the poor translating in the Greek form of the OT. The Isaiah 7 virgin passage is a clear example. If the text had not been translated as it was undoubtedly another verse would have been found to support the miraculous birth tradition recently established. BTW reading the next verse in Is 7 has this son of a maiden needing to learn to choose good over bad. Hardly consistant with the vision most have of Jesus.

  So, you are claiming that because Isaiah calls Israel (or Jacob) His "Servant" in one part of Isaiah, that in every other time Isaiah mentions a "Servant" of God it has to be the SAME servant? What do you base that on?

  In the Book of Isaiah, the following people were ALSO called God's "servant":

  Isaiah is called God's servant:

  Isaiah 20:3: Then the L ord said, "Just as My servant Isaiah has walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and a wonder against Egypt and Ethiopia,

  David is called God's servant:

  Isaiah 37: 35: ' For I will defend this city, to save it for My own sake and for My servant David's sake.'"

  So there are without a doubt, more than one "servant" of God mentioned in Isaiah.

  You are also claiming that "undoubtedly" Matthew would have dug up a different Verse to use to create his fake virgin birth story if the Septuagint had not been "poorly translated."

  Gee, you don't sound the tiniest bit biased, do you?

  Also, according to the New Testament, Jesus the Messiah was INDEED 100% Human (as well as 100% God), and He had to grow and learn things and learn to choose between good and evil, as the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Hebrews show:

  Luke 2:40: And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

  Luke 2:52: And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

  Hebrews 5:8: Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered

  The Hebrew word for "virgin" used in Isaiah 7:14 is `almah {al-maw'}.

  Can you show one instance in the Bible where this Hebrew word (almah) is used in reference to someone who was definitely NOT a virgin?

  In other words, WHY are you so absolutely sure that the Septuagint's translation was done "poorly"?
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  peacefulpete

  This is getting stupid. The word Almah is used in other passages in the Hebrew and not once is the virginal state of the young woman in topic. This includes Isaiah 7 in context.
  The actual Hebrew words, read from right to left, and transliterated, so that the reader who knows no Hebrew may at least catch some words already become familiar, are:
  "laken yittan adonai hu lakem oth hinneh ha-almah harah ve-yeldeth ben ve-karath shem-o immanuel."
  Literally translated into English, in the exact order of the Hebrew words, the "prophecy" reads:
  "Therefore shall-give my-lord he [himself] to you sign behold the-maid conceived (is pregnant) and-beareth son and- calleth name-his immanuel."
  Here the word harah (conceived) is the Hebrew perfect tense, which, as in English, represents past and completed action therefore the use of the word almah is subsequent to her conception. Unless we are to assume Isaiah never hasd intrercourse with his wife before and was not responsible for this child Isaiah's use of almah never meant virgin.

  Also the definite article is in the Hbrew, (ha-almah THE young woman) yet this lost in the greek so that "a virgin" is appears instead. This furthur conceals the context was of a specific woman being pregnant. (Isaiah's wife). The traslators of the LXX obviously were niot trying to conceal anything they were just sloppy. It was Matt who aware of the reading given in the texts used in the temple, who chose to use the greek translation for his agenda.

  The word for virgin is betulah and is used at least 30 times in the OT. If the point was to make a prophesy about something as fantastic as a virgin birth surely the word for virgin would have been used.

  That the notoriously poor Septuigent changed the wording before Matt used it demostrates that Matt was claiming a fullfillment to a prophesy that was never made. Religious jews used the hebrew texts not the Greek translation, if Matt really wanted to impress them he really screwed up. Jewish opponents of Christianity pointed out this very issue right away, as soon as Christians began circulating their books the Jews laughed at their misuse of Is 7. Jerome for example tried to refute the obvious and failed.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  PeacefulPete said:

  Here the word harah (conceived) is the Hebrew perfect tense, which, as in English, represents past and completed action therefore the use of the word almah is subsequent to her conception. Unless we are to assume Isaiah never hasd intrercourse with his wife before and was not responsible for this child Isaiah's use of almah never meant virgin.

  The word for virgin is betulah and is used at least 30 times in the OT. If the point was to make a prophesy about something as fantastic as a virgin birth surely the word for virgin would have been used.

  You are basing your entire argument on the idea or theory that Isaiah 7:14 is talking about Isaiah's wife and her child. Where does the Scripture say that?

  Also, about the Hebrew word "betulah":

  If "betulah" always, without a doubt, referred to a virgin, then take a look at this Verse in Genesis:

  Genesis 24:16: And the damsel [was] very fair to look upon, a virgin ["betulah"], neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.

  Why does that say that a girl was a "betulah" AND NEITHER had any man known her?