I thought the Gospel of Thomas was the 5th Gospel - of course it is apocryphal
The 5th Gospel
by UnDisfellowshipped 29 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
peacefulpete
Th Gospel of Thomas likely pedates Luke or John (in final form anyway). It simply was one of the dozens of 'Gospels' and compilations that were eventually pushed to the background by Proto-orthodox Christians.
-
UnDisfellowshipped
Yerusalyim said:
and Isaiah 56, I think it's just as good a description of those killed in the holocaust as it is of Jesus.
I assume you mean Isaiah 53, not 56, correct?
So, you're saying that this statement in Isaiah 53 is talking about millions upon millions of Jews being murdered and tortured:
it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief
So, you're saying that "it pleased" God when Hitler murdered all those millions of Jews?
That is NOT the God of Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 33:11: Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
-
Narkissos
So, you're saying that this statement in Isaiah 53 is talking about millions upon millions of Jews being murdered and tortured:
it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief
So, you're saying that "it pleased" God when Hitler murdered all those millions of Jews?
That is NOT the God of Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 33:11: Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Undisfellowshipped,
I'm not sure I got your point. Do you really mean (1) that the shoah (or Holocaust) victims should be considered as "wicked"? (2) that "God" is only "pleased" with the death of the "righteous"?
-
UnDisfellowshipped
Narkissos said:
Undisfellowshipped,
I'm not sure I got your point. Do you really mean (1) that the shoah (or Holocaust) victims should be considered as "wicked"? (2) that "God" is only "pleased" with the death of the "righteous"?
My point is this:
All through the Book of Ezekiel (and the entire Bible for that matter), God proclaims that He takes no delight or pleasure in having to put the wicked ones to death.
How much more so God would take NO pleasure in putting millions of Jews to death in the Holocaust!
If Yerusalyim is claiming that Isaiah Chapter 53 is describing the deaths of the millions of Jews in the Holocaust, then that means Yerusalyim is claiming that God is the One who put them all to death.
Notice that in Isaiah 53 it says that God Himself was "PLEASED TO BRUISE HIM [The Servant]".
Was that describing the millions of Jews in the Holocaust?
Did God take pleasure in putting those people to death?
What kind of God would that be?
No, Isaiah Chapter 53 is describing The Messiah's suffering for our sins.
God The Father was "pleased" to bruise The Messiah because it meant salvation for all people who would believe in Him.
Look what Isaiah Chapter 53 says about this Suffering Servant:
Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows [...] He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed. [...] the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. [...] for the transgression of my people He was stricken. [...] it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief [...] You shall make His soul an offering for sin [...] my Righteous Servant shall justify many; for He shall bear their iniquities. [...] He has poured out His soul unto death [...] and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Would anyone care to explain HOW this is supposed to be describing the Holocaust?
-
UnDisfellowshipped
I thought I would also post ALL of the major Hebrew Scripture prophecies (besides the Isaiah ones I posted earlier) about The Messiah here together, for everyone's viewing pleasure:
Daniel 9: 24-27: " Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined. Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate."
Daniel 7: 13-14: " I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed.
Psalm 110:1-4: T he L ORD said to my Lord, " Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool." The L ORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies! Your people shall be volunteers in the day of Your power; in the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. The L ORD has sworn and will not relent, " You are a Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek."
Jeremiah 23: 5-6: " Behold, the days are coming," says the L ORD , " that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Jeremiah 30: 8-9: ' For it shall come to pass in that day,' says the L ORD of hosts, ' that I will break his yoke from your neck, and will burst your bonds; foreigners shall no more enslave them. But they shall serve the L ORD their God, and David their King, whom I will raise up for them.
Jeremiah 33: 14-17: 'Behold, the days are coming,' says the L ORD , 'that I will perform that good thing which I have promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah: ' In those days and at that time I will cause to grow up to David a Branch of righteousness; He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell safely. And this is the name by which she will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.' "For thus says the L ORD : 'David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.'"
Ezekiel 34: 23-24: I will establish One Shepherd over them, and He shall feed them--My Servant David. He shall feed them and be their Shepherd. And I, the L ORD , will be their God, and My Servant David a prince among them; I, the L ORD , have spoken.
Ezekiel 37: 24-28: "David My Servant shall be King over them, and they shall all have One Shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My Servant David shall be their Prince forever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. The nations also will know that I, the L ORD , sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."'"
Micah 5:2: " But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting."
Genesis 49:10: The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people.
Deuteronomy 18: 15-19: "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, according to all you desired of the L ORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the L ORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' "And the L ORD said to me: 'What they have spoken is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.
Zechariah 6: 12-13: Then speak to him, saying, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, saying: " Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH! From His place He shall branch out, and He shall build the temple of the L ORD ; yes, He shall build the temple of the L ORD . He shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule on His throne; so He shall be a Priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace shall be between them both."'
Zechariah 3: 8: ' Hear, O Joshua, the high priest, you and your companions who sit before you, for they are a wondrous sign; for behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH.
Zechariah 13: 7: " Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, against the Man who is My Companion," says the L ORD of hosts. " Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered; then I will turn My hand against the little ones.
Micah 3:1-2: "B ehold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger of the Covenant, in whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the L ORD of hosts. "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like launderers' soap.
-
UnDisfellowshipped
Notice how the Hebrew Scriptures prophesy over and over again about The Messiah DOING AWAY with sin:
Isaiah Chapter 53:
Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows [...] He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed. [...] the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. [...] for the transgression of my people He was stricken. [...] it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief [...] You shall make His soul an offering for sin [...] my Righteous Servant shall justify many; for He shall bear their iniquities. [...] He has poured out His soul unto death [...] and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Daniel Chapter 9:
" Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; [...]
Jeremiah Chapter 31:
"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the L ORD . But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the L ORD : I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the L ORD ,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the L ORD . For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, as you can see, Matthew and the other New Testament writers did NOT simply "make up" this idea of The Messiah sacrificing Himself for the sins of all people, because it is CLEARLY taught throughout the Hebrew Scriptures.
-
peacefulpete
I'll be very brief as it is late.
These three texts are lifted from their contexts by Christians seeking some reference to Jesus. In fact Dan 9 is written by a jew in the dark days of Antiochus Ephiphanes and his efforts to forcibly convert the Jews. This includes the assasination of the high priest and abolishing the sacrifices for three and a half years according to the Maccabean history. The writer rather like the later prophets of a couple hundred years earlier explained the suffering and oppression they were experiencing as some divine punishment for iniquity of the people. He yet hoped that the suffering endured by Israel would make amends and restitution.
Is 53 similarly speaks of the suffering of the nation His servant,as payment for the guilt of the people. The writer also believed that it would accomplish the goal of satiating Yahweh's anger.
Jeremiah (or the writer of this section) was a revolutionary of sorts, he declared that Yahweh never wanted sacrifices in the first place and that the old fashioned and embarassing method of worshipping thru blood sacrifice was past. He called for a new socially conscious and internally motivated covenent. He was speaking to his contemporaries and not Christains living 4-5 hundred years later who used his words to again call for reform.
-
UnDisfellowshipped
PeacefulPete:
I'll also be very brief:
You said:
I'll be very brief as it is late.
These three texts are lifted from their contexts by Christians seeking some reference to Jesus. In fact Dan 9 is written by a jew in the dark days of Antiochus Ephiphanes and his efforts to forcibly convert the Jews. This includes the assasination of the high priest and abolishing the sacrifices for three and a half years according to the Maccabean history. The writer rather like the later prophets of a couple hundred years earlier explained the suffering and oppression they were experiencing as some divine punishment for iniquity of the people. He yet hoped that the suffering endured by Israel would make amends and restitution.
You claim that Daniel Chapter 9 is "lifted from its context" by Christians to support their beliefs??? The Verses themselves say that THE MESSIAH was going to be "cut off" and that He would bring an end to sin. How exactly did Christians "lift that out of context"? According to you, WHO was that "Messiah" mentioned in Daniel Chapter 9? Who did the ancient Jews believe Him to be? Also, do you have ANY evidence or facts to back up your claims?Is 53 similarly speaks of the suffering of the nation His servant,as payment for the guilt of the people. The writer also believed that it would accomplish the goal of satiating Yahweh's anger.
Jeremiah (or the writer of this section) was a revolutionary of sorts, he declared that Yahweh never wanted sacrifices in the first place and that the old fashioned and embarassing method of worshipping thru blood sacrifice was past. He called for a new socially conscious and internally motivated covenent. He was speaking to his contemporaries and not Christains living 4-5 hundred years later who used his words to again call for reform.
-
Leolaia
The word that is translated "Messiah" in Daniel 9 (msych) has a special sense referring to a single coming deliverer of the Jewish people, but more generally it refers to any "anointed one" -- particularly to kings, priests, and especially the high priest. See, for instance, Leviticus 4:3, 5, 16, 6:15; 1 Samuel 2:10, 35. More relevant to Daniel is the Hasmonaean history of 2 Maccabees 1:10 which is addressed to "Aristobulus, tutor to King Ptolemy and one of the family of anointed priests (khriston iereon)," which uses the Greek equivalent khristos in the same sense to refer to priests as "anointed". As for who the "anointed one" that is cut off in Daniel 9:26, note that his death is mention in connection with the pillaging of the Jerusalem sanctuary "by a prince who is to come" and who "will put a stop to sacrifice and oblation" (v. 26-27) an obvious reference to Antiochus Epiphanes (cf. especially the parallel history in ch. 10-11). Indeed, in the parallel history we read in Daniel 11:22 there is a similar allusion to this priest: "Armies will be utterly routed and crushed by him [Antiochus], the prince of the covenant too". The only "anointed" person this fits is Onias III who was deposed in 175 BC and assassinated by supporters of Antiochus as described in 2 Maccabees 4:30-38. This interpretation goes at least as far back as Theodotian (c. AD 180), and is generally accepted by biblical scholars. The evangelical interpretation, positing Jesus as the "anointed", ignores the context referring to Antiochus (the one who waged war against the Holy City and stopped oblations) in connection with the cut-off Anointed, the decree mentioned in Ezra 7 contains no command whatsoever "to restore and build Jerusalem." Those who interpret v. 27 as referring to Jesus' ministry is not only inconsistent (Jesus did not "confirm a covenant with many for one week (=7 years)") but also ignores the obvious context designating the subject as the wicked Antiochus himself. Similarly, in the 490 years ending supposedly with the crucifixion, the first 49 ("seven weeks") are distinguished from those that follow ("sixty-two years"), their close being marked by a break, as though some epoch was signaled by it, but no historical importance is known in Jewish history for the year 409 BC. The evangelical interpretation glosses over this distinction and refers simply to 69 weeks of years. But the two time periods seem to be separated by "the coming of an anointed Prince" in v. 25. The traditional interpretation is that in c. 588 BC: "the command" (lit., "word") of rebuilding Jerusalem was given by Jeremiah (in 31:38ff). Then 49 years pass until the Anointed Prince, Cyrus (cf. Isaiah 45:1; 44:28), in 538 BC ushers in the epoch during which "squares and ramparts are restored and rebuilt, but in a time of trouble". This lasts until the end of the sixty-two weeks, when a restored Jerusalem is depressed by the "time of trouble" in the conflicts between the Seleucids and Ptolemies described in exquisite detail in Daniel 10-11. Then an anointed one is "cut off" "after the sixty-two weeks" (v. 26) and then, after this, Antiochus, the "prince who is to come", will bring war and for one week will make Jews renounce the covenant (cf. 1 Maccabees 1:21, 43, 52; 2 Maccabees 4:10f), and for a half-week (3 1/2 years, the same time period in Daniel 12:7, 11-12) would "put a stop to sacrifice and oblation" and install the "disastrous abomination" (cf. Daniel 11:31, 12:11; 1 Maccabees 1:54). This is a big clue that the cutting-off of the anointed priest comes before the events of 165 BC, not afterward. The biggest problem with the traditional historical interpretation of the 70 weeks, however, is that the period from 538 BC to 172 BC is 366 years only, not 434 (=62 weeks). To this, it should probably be unreasonable to insist that the author of Daniel had an accurate knowledge of the chronology of the Persian and Seleucid period, and there is the significance of the symbolic number 70 which suggests that the concern was not for accurate history but symbolism. As S. R. Driver noted in his commentary, "We do not know what chronology the author followed, or how his years were computed". The chronological imprecision (tho the 49 years between the destruction of Jerusalem, or the year before when Jeremiah made his prophecy, and the first year of Cyrus, is basically accurate) is a much less serious problem for the traditional interpretation than the decontextualization implicit in the evangelical interpretation which removes the obvious allusions to Antiochus in Daniel 9 and ignores how he is the principal figure in the entire section of c. 7-12.