Isaiah 9 is it about Jesus?

by peacefulpete 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

peacefulpete

Pelejoezelgibborabiadsarshalom (wonderful councelor mighty god eternal father prince of peace) is the name/title given in Isaiah 9:5 to someone, but who? (Look it up or this next part will make little sense.) The piece is an expression of faith that Yahweh will bless the people and the government as long as they have a king (or when they get a king, as may be implied by referring to a birth of this king) who honors Him (Yahweh) with words of praise. The confusion is in part due to the fact that the translators have to discern whether the expression found after "to us a son is given" refers to Yahweh or the king. They are split and so in some cases you see the "His" as capitalized referring to God and in others not implying reference to the king. Also this section is separated by a semi-colon or not. It is then either Yahweh who "shoulders the government" and "sustains it with justice and righteousness" or this representative king. The least complicated understading is that these expressions in question refer to Yahweh, given the reference to the "throne"(kingship) as a separate entity being blessed in verse 6. These glorious epithets then are applied to Yahweh not any man.
The writer of Isaiah may provide another interpretation of this passage by his use of other name/titles in naming his legendary sons. (Maher-shalal-hash-baz,Shearjashub) Where the "names" refer to activity of Yahweh. Therefore another possible way to understand Is 9:5 is that the phrase after "a son given to us" does refer to the king and not Yahweh in which case the name Pelejoazelgibbor....is an expression of confidence in Yahweh's direction and protection. In either case nothing here compels unbiased readers to see a prophecy of Jesus.

In most Christian Bibles the name has been translated in the text rather than using a footnote and misleadingly made to appear through punctuation to be separate name/titles attatched to Jesus in prophecy. Further, by the choice of "name WILL be called" ,suggesting a prophecy as is in many translations, rather than "name IS called" ,as is in others, the translators are doing "interpretive" translating.
No Gospel writer used this verse in this way dispite it's seeming usefullness for proving the divinity of the Christ figure. This like all passages used by modern and first/second century Christian apologists must be wrenched from the original context and reinterpreted to be seen as prophecies about Jesus.
I had to correct my wording, sorry if I confused anyone. I also changed the title hoping to attract some responses.
Edited by - peacefulpete on 8 January 2003 11:40:31
Edited by - peacefulpete on 8 January 2003 12:19:32
Edited by - peacefulpete on 8 January 2003 13:16:39
Edited by - peacefulpete on 9 January 2003 2:23:58
peacefulpete

I thought my title was funny and would draw readers, guess I'm not as funny as I thought. Please somebody say something.
Anita

Okay, here goes. My first ever post in a forum of ANY kind. Please bear with me?
First off, I need to appologize that my outlook and context may be different from yours. To be blunt for this moment I will be using NWT, IS vol 1 and SI and my ancient KJV. I doubt I can get into crosswalk.com while making this post. They have a lexicon for the Greek and Hebrew but only 2 versions that you can go through to use it. They also have a dozen or so versions and another dozen or so translations you can use with the "study bible".
This is what is in Isaiah's Prophecy Vol 1 begining on pg 129. This covers Isaiah 9:5-7.
#21 Displays of divine power are not a glorification of warfare. The resurrected Jesus is the Prince of Peace, and by annihilating his enemies, he will usher in eternal peace. Isaiah now speaks of military paraphernalia as being totally destroyed by fire: "Every boot of the one tramping with tremors and the mantle rolled in blood have even come to be for burning as food for fire." (Isaiah 9:5) The tremors caused by the tramping of the boots of marching soldiers will never again be felt. The bloody uniforms of combat-hardened warriors will no longer be seen. War will be no more! - Psalm 46:9. What does Isaiah's prophecy indicate as to the future of warfare?
#22 At the time of his miraculous birth, the one born to be the Messiah received the name Jesus, meaning "Jehovah Is Salvation." But he has other names, prophetic names that outline his key role and his elevated position. One such name is Immanuel, meaning "With Us Is God." (Isaiah 7:14, footnote) Isaiah now describes another prophetic name: "There has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6) Consider the rich meaning of this multiple prophetic name. What multiple prophetic name is Jesus given in the book of Isaiah?
#s 23 and 24 go together
#23 A counselor is one who gives counsel, or advice. When on earth Jesus Christ provided wonderful counsel. In the Bible we read that "crowds were astounded at his way of teaching." (Matthew 7:28) He is a wise and empathetic Counselor, with an extraordinary understanding of human nature. His counsel is not restricted to reprimands or chastisement. More often, it is in the form of instruction and loving advice. Jesus' counsel is wonderful because it is always wise, perfect, and infallible. When followed, it leads to everlasting life. - John 6:68. In what way is Jesus a "Wonderful Counselor"?
#24 Jesus' counsel is not simply the product of his brilliant mind. Rather, he says: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me." (John 7:16) As was the case with Solomin, Jehovah God is the Source of Jesus' wisdom. (1 Kings 3:7-14; Matthew 12:42) Jesus' example should motivate teachers and counselors in teh Christian congregation always to base their instruction on God's Word. - Proverbs 21:30. How can Christian counselors today imitate Jesus' example?
#25 jesus is also "Mighty God" and "Eternal Father." This does not mean that he usurps the authority and position of Jehovah, who is "God our Father." (2 Corinthians 1:2) "He [Jesus]...gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God." (Philippians 2:6) He is called Mighty God, not Almighty God. Jesus never thought of himself as God Almighty, for he spoke of his Father as "the only true God," that is, the only God who should be worshiped. (John 17:3; Revelation 4:11) In teh Scriptures, the word "god" can mean "mighty one" or "strong one." (Exodus 12:12; Psalm 8:5; 2 Corinthians 4:4) Before Jesus came to earth, he was "a god," "existing in God's form." After his resurrection, he returned to an even higher position in the heavens. (John 1:1; Philippians 2:6-11) Further, the designation "god" carries an additional implication. Judges in Israel were called "gods" - once by Jesus himself. (Psalm 82:6; John 10:35) Jesus is Jehovah's appointed Jedge, "destined to judge the living and the dead." (2 Timothy 4:1; John 5:30) Clearly, he is well named God. What does the ame "Mighty God" tell us about the heavenly Jesus?
#26 The title "Eternal Father" refers to the Messianic King's power and authority to give humans the prospect of eternal life on earth. (John 11:25, 26) The legacy of our first parent, Adam, was death. Jesus, the last Adam, "became a life-giving spirit." (1 Corinthians 15:22, 45; Romans 5:12, 18) Just as Jesus, the Eternal Father, will live forever, so obedient mankind will enjoy the benefits of his fatherhood eternally. - Romans 6:9. Why can Jesus be called "Eternal Father"?
#s 27 and 28 go together
#27 Besides everlasitng life, man also needs peace, both with God and with his fellowman. Even today, thosesubjecting themselves to the rule of the "Prince of Peace: have 'beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears.' (Isaiah 2:2-4) They do not nurse hatreds because of political, territorial, racial, or economic differences. They are united in the worship of the one true God, Jehovah, and they work to maintain peaceful relations with their neighbors, both inside and outside the congregation. - Galatians 6:10; Ephesians 4:2, 3; 2 Timothy 2:24. What wonderful benefits come both now and in the future to subjects of the "Prince of Peace"?
#28 In God's due time, Christ will establish on earth a peace that will be global, firmly established, permanent. (Acts 1:7) To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, form now on and to time indefinite." (Isaiah 9:7a) In exercising his authority as the Prince of Peace, Jesus will not resort to tyrannical means. His subjects will not be stripped of their free will and subjugated by force. Rather, all that he will accomplish will be "by means of justice and by means of righteousness." What a refreshing change! [Same question as in #27 applies to this paragraph]
#29 In view of the wonderful implications of Jesus' prophetic name, Isaiah's conclusion to this part of his prophecy is truly thrilling. He writes: "The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this." (Isaiah 9:7b) Yes, Jehovah acts with zeal. He does nothing in a halfhearted way. We can be sure that whatever he promises, he will fully accomplish. If anyone, then, longs to enjoy everlasitng peace, let him serve Jehovah wholeheartedly. Like Jehovah God and Jesus, the Prince of Peace, may all servants of God be "zealous for fine works." - Titus 2:14. What should we do if we wish to enjoy the blessing of everlasting peace?
What follows is the blurb form All Scripture is Inspired on pp 119, 120.
#12 Threatened enemy invasions and promise of relief (7:1 - 12:6). Jehovah uses Isaiah and his sons as prophetic 'signs and miracles' to show that first the combine of Syria and Israel against Judah will fail but in time Judah will go into captivity with only a remnent returning. A maiden will become pregnant and bear a son. His name? Immanuel (meaning, "With Us Is God"). Let the combined enemies against Judah take note! "Gird yourselves, and be shattered to pieces!" There will be hard times, but then a great light will shine upon God's people. For a child has been born to us, "and his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." - 7:14; 8:9, 18; 9:6. (a) How are Isaiah and his sons used as prophetic signs? (b) What outstanding promise is given in Isaiah chapter 9?

Okay, now for the actual verses from the NWT. I will insert the references in where they come along. The footnotes are below the verses.
5 For every boot of the one tramping [Isa 14:4] with tremors* and the mantle rolled in blood# have even come to be for burning as food for fire. [Isa 9:19] 6 For there has been a child born to us, [Isa 7:14; Lu 1:35; Lu 2:11] there has been a son given to us; [Joh 1:14; Joh 3:16; Heb 1:2] and the princely rule* will come to be upon his shoulder. [Ge 49:10; Ps 2:6; Lu 22:29; Re 19:16] And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor,# [Isa 11:2; Zec 6:13; Mt 7:28; Mt 12:42] Mighty God,% [Ps 45:3; Joh 1:18] Eternal Father,& [1Co 15:22; Heb 9:12; Re 1:18] Prince of Peace.$ [Isa 32:18; Joh 14:27] 7 To the abundance of the princely rule* [Da 2:35] and to peace there will be no end,# [Ps 72:7; Da 2:44] upon the throne of David [Lu 1:32; Re 3:7] and upon his kingdom in order to establish it% firmly [2Sa 7:16; re 11:15] and to sustain it by means of justice [Isa 42:1; Jer 23:5; Mt 12:18] and by means of righteousness, [Ps 45:6; Isa 16:5; Isa 32:1; Joh 5:30; Heb 1:8] from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this. [2Ki 19:31; Isa 7:9]
5* "Or, "rattling; pounding."
5# Lit., "bloods."
6* Or, "the princedom; the rule as prince." Heb., hammisrah; Gr., he arkhe; Lat., principatus
6# Lit., "Wonder (Miracle) of a Counselor," or, "Wonder, Counselor," M; LXX, "The Angel of Grand Counsel"; Sy, "Wonder and Counselor."
6% Or, "Mighty Divine One." Heb., El Gibbohr (not El Shaddai as in Ge 17:1, where see ftn:"God Almighty." Heb., El Shaddai.); Sy, "Mighty God of times indefinite"; Lat., Deus fortis.
6& Or, "Father Forever." Heb., Aviadh.
6$ Or, "Peaceable Prince," that is, a prince giving peace.
7* "The princely rule." Heb., hammisrah. Here and in vs 6 are the only occurrences of this expression .
7# Or, "His princely rule will certainly abound, and there will be no end to peace," if a dittography in M; LXX agrees.
7% "It," Fem., referring to "kingdom."
Now for the KJV. This is a Thompson Chain reference study bible, I have to do the best I can in this format with the refernces given.
5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall becalled Wonderful, Counsellor, The might God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of hisgovenment and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish is with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perfom this.
For vs 5 it gives:
#3770 Horrors of War, Isa 13:16.
For vs 6 it gives:
#1655 Births Foretold, Mt 1:21.
#720 Incarnation, Isa 11:1.
#717 Christ's Dominion, Da 7:14.
#2516 Wonderful Name, Lu 1:31.
#3838 Christ's Wisdom.
#701 Christ Divine.
#3014 Peace (3).
For vs 7 it gives:
#2380 Growth of Kingdom, Isa 42:4.
#2483 Eternal Kingdom, Da 2:44.
#3775 Peace (8), Isa 11:9.
#3421 Christ, King, Isa 32:1.
#2890 Messianic Prophecies, Isa 11:10; Isa 11:4; Isa 32:1; Isa 42:3
#709 Christ Eternal, Isa 59:17
#430 God's Word Sure.
Hence as I see it in both these Bibles: Yes it is refering to Jesus. I will go ahead and send this part now before the server decides I've been on way too long (hehe).
Anita
onacruse

pete, interesting point. Another example, I think, of the pitfall of viewing a Bible passage with preconconceived interpretations. Your post made a little more sense to me when I read how the Jewish Publication Society renders Isaiah 9:6--
For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

I was curious to see if the Hebrew text supports such a "run-on" connection of these titles:
Mwls-rv deyba rwbg la Uewy alp

Notice that there is no conjunctive makkeph (the horizontal line) between any of these words except the last two (sar-shalom = prince of peace). Unfortunately the LXX text is unclear at this verse (Isaiah is considered to be the very worst translation of all the books in the LXX):
For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: {1} for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.
ftn: {1) Alex. +Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty One, Potentate, Prince of Peace, Father of the age to come; Compare Heb 2:2}
Calvin comments:
The Jews apply it to God, and read it continuously, he shall call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. But it is very evident that this proceeds from a desire, or rather from a licentious eagerness, to obscure the glory of Christ; for if they had not labored with excessive keenness to rob him of his Godhead, the passage would run on very smoothly as interpreted by our divines.
On strictly textual grounds, I would be inclined to disagree with the proposition that "In most Christian Bibles the name has been translated in the text rather than using a footnote and misleadingly made to appear through punctuation to be separate name/titles attatched to Jesus in prophecy."
Craig
PS: Welcome to the forum, Anita. Heavy stuff for a first post! Carry on!
Edited by - onacruse on 9 January 2003 12:39:3
peacefulpete

How many Christian versions have left the name untranslated? If translated here why not also for Mahershalelhashbaz? It seems obvious that the bias that this refers to Jesus prompted this inconsistency in translating to make the verse stand out. This traditional rendering is utilized by even those who interpret the text differently. This is seen in that the semi-colon and commas really convey the meaning here and this is clearly a matter of understanding of the passage as refering to Yahweh or his representative king. Many translators feel that attributing the phrase in question to Yahweh is the simpler reading and consistent with Jewish theology and other scriptural referencs to Yahwah being the force behind the throne. There is in fact nothing to recommend an interpretation of this verse as referring to Jesus other than religious bias.
heathen

Now that's it you guys . I am going to have to take that evelyn wood speed reading class else I'll be here all day.
LittleToe

Those thoughts can also dovetail with Isa.10:21:
KJV:
The remnant shall return, [even] the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
NWT:
A mere remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God
onacruse

How many Christian versions have left the name untranslated?

Fair question. I was able to find the following 9 versions (Isa 8:1)(italics added)--
And Jehovah said to me: Take thee a large roll, and write in it with an ordinary pen: Make speed to spoil, hasten to the prey. (Calvin)
And the Lord said to me: Take thee a great book, and write in it with a mans pen. Take away the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey. (Douay)
Then the LORD said to me, "Take for yourself a large tablet and write on it in ordinary letters: Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey. (New American Standard)
And Jehovah saith unto me, Take to thee a great tablet, and write upon it with a graving tool of man, To haste spoil, enjoy prey. (Young's Literal Translation)
The LORD said to me, "Take a large piece of writing material and write on it in large letters: 'Quick Loot, Fast Plunder.' (Todays English Version)
The Eternal said to me, "Take a large board and write on it plainly, 'Spoilsoonpreyquick,' (Moffatt)
The LORD said to me, take a large tablet and write upon it in common script: Hasty spoil, speedy booty. (Modern Language Bible)
Then the Lord said to me, Take a great scroll, and write on it, in thy human penmanship, the words, Spoiler, haste; there's plunder afoot. (Knox)
Then said the LORD to me, "Take a great tablet, and write upon it in the ordinary script, 'Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey.' (An American Translation)
Interesting to note that, as with Isa 9:6, the "name" Maher-shal-hash-baz in the Hebrew text also lacks the makkeph, and so is really 4 separate words:
zb sx lls rhm
But in this case, unlike at Isa 9:6, the Jewish Publication Society goes ahead and translates the words in Isa 8:1 directly:
And the LORD said unto me: Take thee a great tablet, and write upon it in common script: The spoil speedeth, the prey hasteth;
So there is also inconsistency on the part of JPS. Possibly the JPS is likewise betraying a certain prejudice here?
There is in fact nothing to recommend an interpretation of this verse as referring to Jesus other than religious bias.
I'm inclined to agree. That not one verse of Isaiah chapter 9 is directly quoted in the NT suggests that it did not have prophetic implications about the messiah (the closest direct quotes that I'm aware of are from Isa 6 and Isa 29). Nor is there any compelling reason that would make Christians need to have Isa 9:6 apply to Jesus.
Craig
peacefulpete

thank you for the posts, The 10:21 verse was a nice detail. I must admit I neglected to look up the 8:1 verse in more than the NWT. I'm sure your right bias goes both ways. I do think though that Is 9:1,2 is quoted in Mat 4 and is applied to the preaching of Jesus. The NT authors scoured the scriptures for morsels that could be extracted and made to fit the Christian story. By this I do not imply fraud but only overzealousness and less than critical scholarship. This however does not suggest that verse 6 was understood to be addressing Jesus. It may infer that the writer of Matt 4 saw Jesus as the representative king who would be blessed by Yahweh the "mighty God". Even this however is speculative as neither he nor other writers of the time applied it this way.
This betrays a fundemental flaw with written communication doesn't it? While it has the advantage of greater permanance it unfortunately cannot elaborate upon difficult wording or expound the way a live teacher can. Forever students will be asked to interpret novels in school and politicians reinterpret the constitution every year. Printed word certainly has a place in our society but as life and death message from God it is inadequate.
Edited by - peacefulpete on 10 January 2003 0:37:54
Edited by - peacefulpete on 10 January 2003 0:43:23
onacruse

pete, you are absolutely right, not only is Isa 9:1, 2 quoted at Matt 4:16, but also (as a bracketing of this section of Isaiah) Isa 10:22, 23 is quoted at Rom. 9:27, 28.
We learn from each other, eh?
Craig

Isaiah 9 is it about Jesus?

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