Einstein Theory of Relativity

by VM44 73 Replies latest jw friends

  • myauntfanny
    myauntfanny

    whoopsie, submitted before I wrote it, sorry

    amazing 1914

    That's very interesting, if I understand it (which is questionable). But if you are saying these particles are connected on some sort of axis, I'm surprised. My understanding (which I think I've mentioned is weak) is that these particles operate on a quantum level, and are therefore only there part of the time or possibly probabalistically there all the time or none of the time etc. Well, under these circumstances, surely an axis that connects them is equally probabilistic and vague. It's hard to imagine what the connection between them would consist of under those circumstances. HOpe that makes sense, it's probably a stupid point anyway, but I'm trying to understand.

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly

    Holy cheese and crackers ONA--- Last time we talked you were having trouble with "plumb" and "level".

    I teach basic electrical theory for an apprenticeship program. I am always amazed how "high school graduates" have no understanding of basic science and concepts of mass, energy and time.

    "Thinking" and "thought" are a lost art in our times. Seems we forget that most of the "breakthroughs" in technology were brought to us by farmers and blacksmiths in the 1800's. The pure scientists and theory guys are great... but common sense manages to find application most every time.

    -------------Hill (the eagle flies over the indian and reservation class)

  • Amazing1914
    Amazing1914

    myauntfanny,

    That's very interesting, if I understand it (which is questionable). But if you are saying these particles are connected on some sort of axis, I'm surprised.

    No, I am not saying that, nor was I dealing with quantum theory. I was illustrating a point of energy transmission. Mass and energy are equivalent in Einstein's world, hence E=MC 2

    So, theory has it that objects elongate or shorten, depending on the phenomon at work, as they are in motion or better stated accelerating. So, if you were to tug on the million mile "rod" I described above, it would appear to the observer to elongate, because it would take 5.4 seconds for the energy to transmit through the mass to the far end for it to respond. Likewise, if you push on the same "rod" then it would appear to shorten until the energy reaches the far end. This is different then the quantum theories related to simultaneous actions of nuclear particles.

    My understanding (which I think I've mentioned is weak) is that these particles operate on a quantum level, and are therefore only there part of the time or possibly probabalistically there all the time or none of the time etc.

    Yes. An example of this is that theory has it that a partical in the anti-matter universe will react at the same time in a mirror image fashion with respect to spin.

    Well, under these circumstances, surely an axis that connects them is equally probabilistic and vague. It's hard to imagine what the connection between them would consist of under those circumstances. HOpe that makes sense, it's probably a stupid point anyway, but I'm trying to understand.

    I will dig through my references and see if I can find some interesting examples.

    hillbilly,

    I teach basic electrical theory for an apprenticeship program. I am always amazed how "high school graduates" have no understanding of basic science and concepts of mass, energy and time.

    I was an electrical engineer for twenty-five years, and worked in engineering, construction, plant operations, and material science research and testing for nuclear power stations. I find your statement only partly true. We would have "high school" interns at our plant or at test labs, and I found them sharp and up to date on theory. But if I ran into a high school kid outside that context, and they were not into science, then yes, they seem to have a lack of basic understanding of physics.

    "Thinking" and "thought" are a lost art in our times. Seems we forget that most of the "breakthroughs" in technology were brought to us by farmers and blacksmiths in the 1800's. The pure scientists and theory guys are great... but common sense manages to find application most every time.

    I don't agree with this statement. I agree that farmers etc. were in the middle of inventions, but many times those who advanced technology were well educated, and left the farms for other things. I don't think Edison, for example, was a farmer. The only reason that many inventions came from this sector is that farming dominated most cultures until the industrial revolution. Around the turn of the century, as most workers left farms and moved to cities, and developments in technologies shifted. Today, universities with their "pure science and theory guys" are out there with inventions and technological advances every bit as much as any other sector.

    Btw: Einstein himself was not a farmer but worked in a Patent office. He had trouble getting into school and balancing his checkbook. There is belief that his wife, who was a well educated person in physics and math, developed the general and special theories of relativity. Back in those days, because women were not given proper recognition in these fields, he was given the credit and received the Nobel prize. The best evidence for this is that he gave a large share of the prize money to her. They were divorced when he received the Nobel prize, so there would be no need for this sharing of the prize unless she had something to do with developing the theories.

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly

    Jim-- I stand by my statement about "high school graduates". Your experience is positive, as it appears that you may have been exposed to the classic "10%" of kids who actually acheive the competence that US schools make available to those who work at learning. It seems like I get the other 90% here.

    I guess the statement appears a bit "broad brushing". I guess my frustration is due that the skill set I teach also requires a person to have a appitute for logic and deductive reasoning. If the folks I train can't reason and evaluate cause and effect, well, the may end up dead. (I work in High Voltage and Extra high voltage transmission and distribution lines).

    I have worked in a trade union who expected appretice line men and electricians or other technicians to be able to solve a basic variable equation like Ohm's Law.

    I get to haggle with our principle engineer often. He sent out an accident investigation and explained floating voltage on an ungrounded delta circuit using a advanced trig equation and graphing solution. I got it. Nobody else did. Fact is, he's educated beyond his intelligence and a nitwit. No one would try to "explain" the problem (and safety solution) in this manner but this guy.

    Dear Mr. Ford was a general powerplant mechanic at Detroit Edison while he putted with his car building in a back alley garage. Without good financing he would have never gone anyplace. R E Olds and folks like the Dodge Brothers from Niles, Mi were just as "inventive" and now , overlooked in historical context.

    As far a farmers and blacksmiths... yep, those were the feilds of endevor that spured invention at the time. "Necessity is the mother of invention".

    Yea- Albert was a frustrated Clerk in the Patent office. Some folks figure he may have had ADD or some other learning disability. For my money, Nicolas Telsa (The brain at Westinghouse) or George Steinmetz (Edisons hired- gun brainiac) brought a lot more to the table.

    good thread! and glad to see you feeling better Jim!

    (I would edit this but I am having a spelling and grammer lapse today)

    ---------Hill (Pi are round, corbreads are square class)

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    :

    Einstein's theory presents a verifiable explanation of the physical universe that is inconsistent with the deterministic/apocalyptic sociological goal of every religion.

    : I am not sure how any of Einstein's theories would do this. Maybe you could explain.

    Deterministic science (first started by Aristotle) says that everything can be explained without observation, that pure intellect will successfully explain everything and observation is not necessary.

    The statement someone made that the speed of light depends upon the speed of the body emitting it is just wrong. Light travels at the same speed to all observers, whether the observers are standing still or moving towards or away from the light at great speed. This is Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity. Since the speed of light depends upon velocity, one wonders how that could be. It is so because Einstein proved that time is not a constant and varies according to the velocity of the each observer.

    A simple experiment proved this: a beam of light was send in the direction the earth is turning. Another beam of light was sent perpendicular to the earth. The velocity of each beam of light was exactly the same.

    Farkel

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Albert Einstein

    Physics and Reality

    Part 1: General Considerations Concerning the Method of Science

    (Journal of the Franklin Institute, Vol. 221, No. 3, March 1936)

    It has often been said, and certainly not without justification, that the man of science is a poor philosopher. Why, then, should it not be the right thing for the physicist to let the philosopher do the philosophizing? Such might indeed be the right thing at a time when physicist believes that he has at his disposal a rigid system of fundamental concepts and fundamental laws which are so well established that waves of doubt cannot reach them; but, it cannot be right at a time when the very foundations of physics itself have become problematic as they are now. At a time like the present, when experience forces us to seek a newer and more solid foundation, the physicist cannot simply surrender to the philosopher the critical contemplation of the theoretical foundations; for, he himself knows best, and feels more surely the where the shoe pinches. In looking for a new foundation, he must try to make clear in his own mind just how far the concepts which he uses are justified, and are necessities.

    The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking. It is for this reason that the critical thinking of the physicist cannot possibly be restricted to the examination of the concepts of his own specific field. He cannot proceed without considering critically a much more difficult problem, the problem of analyzing the nature of everyday thinking.

    Our psychological experience contains, in colorful succession, memory pictures of them, images, and feelings. In contrast to psychology, physics treats directly only of sense experiences and of the ?understanding? of their connection; But even the concept of the ?real external world? of everyday thinking rests exclusively on sense impressions.

    Now we must first remark that the differentiation between sense perceptions and images is not possible; or, at least it is not possible with absolute certainty. With the discussion of this problem, which affects also the notion of reality, we will not concern ourselves but we shall take the existence of sense experiences as given, that is to say, as psychic experiences of a special kind.

    I believe that the first in the setting of a ?real external world? is the formation of the concept of bodily objects and of bodily objects of various kinds. Out of the multitude of our sense experiences we take, mentally and arbitrarily, certain repeatedly occurring complexes of sense impressions (partly in conjunction with sense impressions which are interpreted as signs for sense experiences of others), and we correlate to them a concept?the concept of the bodily object. Considered logically this concept is not identical with the totality of sense impressions referred to; but it is a free creation of the human (or animal) mind. On the other hand, this concept owes its meaning and its justification exclusively to the totality of the sense impressions which we associate with it.

    The second step is to be found in the fact that, in our thinking (which determines our expectation), we attribute to this concept of the bodily object a significance, which is to a high degree independent of the sense impressions which originally give rise to it. This is what we mean when we attribute to the bodily object a ?real existence.? The justification of such a setting rests exclusively on the fact that, by means of such concepts and mental relations between them, we are able to orient ourselves in the labyrinth of sense impressions. These notions and relations, although free mental creations, appear to us as stronger and more unalterable than the individual sense experience itself, the character of which as anything other than the result of an illusion or hallucination is never completely guaranteed. On the other hand, these concepts and relations, and indeed the postulation of real objects and, generally speaking, of the existence of ?the real world,? have justification only in so far as they are connected with sense impressions between which they form a mental connection.

    The very fact that the totality of our sense experiences is such that by means of thinking (operations with concepts, and the creation and use of definite functional relations between them, and the coordination of sense experiences to these concepts) it can be put in order, this fact is one which leaves us in awe, but which we shall never understand. One may say, ?the external mystery of the world is its comprehensibility.? It is one of the great realizations of Immanuel Kant that the postulation of a real external world would be senseless without this comprehensibility.

    In speaking here of ?comprehensibility,? the expression is used in its kost modest sense. It implies: the production of some sort of order among sense impressions, this order being produced by the creation of general concepts, relations between these concepts, and by definite relations of some kind between the concepts and sense experience. It is in this sense that the world of our sense experiences is comprehensible. The fact that it is comprehensible is a miracle.

    In my opinion, nothing can be said a priori concerning the manner in which the concepts are to be formed and connected, and how we are to coordinate them to sense experiences. In guiding us in the creation of such an order of sense experiences, success alone is the determining factor. All that is necessary is to fix a set of rules, since without such rules the acquisition of knowledge in the desired sense would be impossible. One may compare these rules with the rules of a game in which, while the rules themselves are arbitrary, it is their rigidity alone which makes the game possible. However, the fixation will never be final. It will have validity only for a special field of application (i.e., there are no final categories in the sense of Kant).

    The connection of the elementary concepts of everyday thinking with complexes of sense experiences can only be comprehended intuitively and it is unadaptable to scientifically logical fixation. The totality of these connections?none of which is expressible in conceptual terms?is the only thing which differentiates the great building which is science from a logical but empty scheme of concepts.

  • Amazing1914
    Amazing1914

    Hillbilly,

    Jim-- I stand by my statement about "high school graduates". Your experience is positive, as it appears that you may have been exposed to the classic "10%" of kids who actually acheive the competence that US schools make available to those who work at learning. It seems like I get the other 90% here.

    I wasn't suggesting you should not stand by your statement, nor was I debating you. Rather, your initial comment was more global, and I was citing some exceptions. Otherwise I agreed with you.

    I guess the statement appears a bit "broad brushing". I guess my frustration is due that the skill set I teach also requires a person to have a appitute for logic and deductive reasoning. If the folks I train can't reason and evaluate cause and effect, well, the may end up dead. (I work in High Voltage and Extra high voltage transmission and distribution lines).

    Yep! You have a valid point. We had a man fried inside an 800 amp draw-out breaker ... not a pretty sight.

    I have worked in a trade union who expected appretice line men and electricians or other technicians to be able to solve a basic variable equation like Ohm's Law.

    Most electricians I have worked with seem fairly competant ... sometimes felt they knew everything and talked down to engineers. Most did not.

    Yea- Albert was a frustrated Clerk in the Patent office. Some folks figure he may have had ADD or some other learning disability. For my money, Nicolas Telsa (The brain at Westinghouse) or George Steinmetz (Edisons hired- gun brainiac) brought a lot more to the table.

    Yes ... and Niels Bohr (spelling) ... he was the quantum guy who Einstein made the famous remark that God does not play dice.

    Farkel ... you and I need a phone call ... the lastest-late on light is that it "may not" be constant after all ... and some studies show it is slowing down - albeit, very slowly.

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly

    Jim- No debate intended.... I think we see things the same way- from from different sides of the coin.

    By the way, I have found this whole thread enjoyable.

    ---------------- HB

  • myauntfanny
    myauntfanny

    What, there's New Light on light? Okay, sorry to interrupt a serious discussion, it just hit me. (Slinks away, chastened in advance).

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    The speed of light as a "constant," according to Einstein's theory of Special Relativity, is a necessary condition to satisfy the postulate "that the laws of nature are invariant under a particular group of space-time coordinate transformations, called Lorentz transformations." (Weinberg, Gravitation and Cosmology) There is nothing intrinsic to the solutions of those Reimannian metric tensors that requires that the speed of light itself remain constant throughout all time. Same with the "gravitational" constant...there is recent, though not yet fully verified, experimental evidence that this "constant" is also not constant.

    So much for a "deterministic" universe.

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