Changd My Mind About the War In Iraq

by roybatty 59 Replies latest social current

  • roybatty
    roybatty
    I've held the notion that unless an oppressed populace is ready to fight and die for their freedoms all by themselves, they probably arent ready to handle those freedoms presented in any other manner. I'd put Iran way ahead of Iraq on the list of potential democracies. If oppressed people are ready to lead their own revolution against tyranny - I say help them out. This was clearly not the case in Iraq.

    To it's like someone who has a drug or drinking problem. If they don't want help, if they continue to deny that they have a problem even after being confronted time and again, what CAN you do? What can you do for the people of Iraq? They don't WANT a free society? Where is the Thomas Jefferson or George Washington or any founding father that's willing to risk everything and make an attempt at change? I don't see it. And if the people of Iraq aren't willing to spill their own blood for a free society, then I dam sure don't want my brothers and sisters spilling their blood for these people.

    Seems like Iraq and many other nations love it when we give them money, build school and rebuild their entire country but where are they when it comes to putting their neck on the line? Shi* look at the Iraqi police and soldier who deserted (and for what reason?) They were late in getting paid. Where is their sense of wanting to build a new and better Iraq? Where is their sense of outrage from the years of oppresion under Saddam? Where is their desire to not allow such a dictator to exist again?

    Hell, at least in Vietnam there was some type of army in the south that was fighting with us.

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    This country is made up of people who themselves, or their forefathers, took a risk to escape some form of tyranny for freedom, either economic, religious, social. As I said before, I know many Muslims who have left there homelands to come to the US to make something more of their lives than what they had back home.

    It's a very tall order to now try to go to their homelands and get them to want freedom, democracy, economic opportunity. They don't understand it in the first place, and they just end up resenting you in the second place. Robatty is right, some of them feel "entitled" to be given help/money from the US--but they turn around and hate the US when we try to impose a value system on them that they cannot begin to relate to. Just like with this photo, the fact that women are shown doing the maltreatment is a glaring no-no. Women are the oppressed, not the oppressors.

    I lived out of the country and came back because I took our freedoms for granted; in particular my freedom and opportunity as a woman for granted.

  • Richie
    Richie

    George W Bush told the Arab Media how sorry he and the American people were for the abuses caused to Arab prisoners by a few American soldiers. In my opinion, this was a mistake. A huge mistake! As reprehensible as the conduct was of the few members of the US military in their behaviour to the handful of Arab prisoners, it was no big deal in comparison to the overall picture. What makes it real bad, is that it shows we can behave as despicably as them. And more than that, it is small potatoes compared to what the Arabs do to each other. But to listen to the Arabs: it is the worst calamity to have fallen upon them since the Ten Plagues.

    Where have the voices of the "downtrodden" Arabs been during the days of mass murder, torture and rape of Saddam? And where are the voices of outrage against ALL Arab communities which routinely practice torture and murder against their own citizens? It is no secret, that when the Americans want to fully interrogate a prisoner, they allow an Arab state to do it for them. Where are all the voices of moral outrage against the psychological and physical torture that is inflicted upon women throughout the Arab and Moslem world every day? Where's the outright condemnation for the murder, torture and ethnic cleansing carried on in the Sudan by an Arab government just named to the United Nation's Commission For Human Rights?

    The Arabs can spare the civilized world the theatrics and their crocodile tears. What the few Americans did to the prisoners was wrong. But in comparison to what the Arabs do to each other as part and parcel of their "normal" way of doing business was literally nothing.

    I thought the best way to handle this in the beginning: let the Americans get in, do what they have to do, and get out. The Americans have not yet seen much more than the tip of the iceberg of what the Middle East Arabs are all about.

    George W Bush offered his apologies for the vulgar acts of a few Americans. By having done that, he has added rocket-fuel to an already burning fire. The Arabs will not see anything more in this spectacle of US contrition than weakness in America. The Arabs will only view the words of the President of the United States as a sign of approbation in their belief that the USA is the Great Satan, and the guilt freely admitted to by the leader of the Great Satan has to be punished with Jihad. He has given disparate Arab and Moslem groups the reason to temporarily bury their differences to come together in an American hate-a-thon. Where's the benefit in that?

    When Ehud Barak tried to do the right thing by unilaterally pulling his troops out of Southern Lebanon in 2000, his gesture only emboldened the Arabs to further push the terrorist envelope. What was meant to be a demonstration of good faith, became a show of weakness and an invitation to more violence.

    Two weeks ago, the American military surrounding Fallujah installed Saddam Bathists to take over from the marines who were poised to storm the city. To me, this might be the first step by the Americans to disengage from Iraq. The solution for America to save whatever face they have left in the Arab and Moslem world is to allow the Bathist Sunnis to establish themselves in the centre, the Shiites in the south, and the Kurds in the North. Screw the Shiites and Sunnis. Make a deal with Turkey to leave the Kurds alone. And then do whatever is necessary to protect and defend the Kurds and all the oil wells that come with their northern territory.

    When the late Syrian dictator Hafez Al Assad was threatened by members of the Moslem Brotherhood from the city of Hama (population of appr. 300,000); on February 2, 1982, he began a siege and bombardment of the Moslem Brotherhood enclave of Hama that lasted for 27 days.
    No one was allowed to leave or surrender. Not even innocent men, women or children. After the shelling stopped and Assad's killing squads finished their ugly business, it is estimated that more than 30,000 to 40,000 people were murdered, with another 15,000 unaccounted for. Hafez Al Assad never had to worry about the Moslem Brotherhood ever again. And neither does his son Bashir. This is what the Arabs seem to understand and respect most, since hardly a whisper of condemnation for this act of genocide could be heard from anyone.

    The Middle East is about to implode. Saudi oil fields and their delivery systems are already under attack. The Gulf states are incredibly vulnerable to similar attacks. Egypt's Hosni Mubarak is sitting atop a powder-keg. And the Americans are beginning to look like easy targets.

    The only nation in the world (Israel) that can be called upon to protect American interests, democracy and modernity in the Middle East is under attack from the UN, the EU and the entire Arab and Moslem world. None of this is good.

    If there is anything the Americans can do to extricate themselves from this mess, that does not further empower the Arab world, it is to leave in a blaze of glory. Bush should beat the crap out of those who have shown the US the greatest level of hostility, withdraw to the north (the Kurds) and call it a day. Iraq will probably convulse in a brutal civil war, where real prisoner-abuse will be the norm, and bloodletting will become a national pastime until at least one strongman wins control.

    The Iranian Shiites will probably enter the fray, which will possibly invite a response by the Saudis, causing the Middle East to redesign itself. All of which will play hard on the oil thirsty industrialized world. Maybe Syria, Jordan and Egypt will jump in as well. Maybe the nightmare can be contained in the Middle East. And maybe the democratized world will finally understand the absolute need to conserve existing energy, while discovering and developing new forms of energy.

    I can see no other alternative. The Middle East will implode with or without the contrition of George W Bush. And when that happens, hang on tight, because the Arabs will be taking us for quite a ride.

    Richie :*)

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    I'm getting fed up, too. My idealism is getting tired.

    I want out of the U.N. as well. I'm sick of having to care what the French think. Let's kick 'em out and just sit on the Security Council so we can veto EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING.

    I say we build an empire and crush our enemies - let subject territories EARN citizenship. Legalise slavery as well - my house needs cleaning. Also, I say we make them fight for our entertainment on television.

    In case you can't tell, I'm being sarcastic.

    CZAR

  • roybatty
    roybatty
    This is what the Arabs seem to understand and respect most, since hardly a whisper of condemnation for this act of genocide could be heard from anyone.

    Seems that there are plenty of Muslims willing to blow themselves up when it comes to killing innocent civilians. Why hasn't there ever been a sucide attack on Saddam? Can you imagine being one of his victms? Can you imagine that it was your son or daughter that was beaten gassed? I cannot imagine any force on earth that would prevent me from at least trying to kill him or one of his security details.

    Again, if they don't want to spill their blood, why should we spill ours?

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Yeah Roy, you're better than them, aren'tcha? Must be genetic, since "they" are all such spineless shits. Damn it's good to be American!

  • roybatty
    roybatty
    Yeah Roy, you're better than them, aren'tcha? Must be genetic, since "they" are all such spineless shits. Damn it's good to be American!

    Yup, I am better. Ah the ol' "they" argument. Yeah, pull the racist card out. One problem though. If I were to have born in Iraq instead of here in America, I'd be no differnt. It's not genetic, it's cultural. Until the average Iraqi person wants to do something for him/her self, why should American boys and girls die for them? It appears to me that there are plenty of Iraqis willing to die to fight to return to a Saddam style government but not too many willing to die for change. Why bleed for them when 1) they aren't willing to do the same & 2) they don't want us to help them.

  • LucidSky
  • LucidSky
    LucidSky
    So, explain "international cooperation." Explain who we achieve a stable and representative government in an area/culture that consistently demonstrates itself to be murderous, oppressive, culturally breeding terrorism, who truly don't understand the concept of freedom.

    blacksheep, I wish I knew exactly the best way to promote those values. I do know America should champion human rights -- religious, women, representation, etc. -- which automatically raises living conditions. America could use its immense clout to pressure positive changes in China, Middle East, Africa. It's going to be harder now though in the Middle East until Israel/Palestine is resolved. I also find it objectionable that our country could have a key role in making an international war crimes court, but then unsign our signature. If this court existed in the past, it could have brought international justice on murderers like Saddam and his buddies. This is one real example of something America can do. There are plenty of others things besides war.

    Lucid

  • Realist
    Realist

    blacksheep,

    I lived out of the country and came back because I took our freedoms for granted; in particular my freedom and opportunity as a woman for granted.

    where the hell did you live???

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit