Did anyone ever ask FDR to appologise for Pearl Harbor?

by blindfool 44 Replies latest social current

  • Realist
    Realist

    yeru,

    * a million dead iraqis because of hussein? lets keep it realistic ok!?

    what killed these people was the UN/US sanctions! and don't start with the oil for food program...that was established in 1995 a point where the people had already died. and it still denied iraqis vital drugs medical supplies etc.

    * the dead israelis? the one guy who died from a heart attack because a scud crash in his yard? please!

    * remember that the US had no problem with hussein fighting iran ...right!?!?! where was the moral concern back then?

    * he was a threat to the kuwaity royal family in 1990...no question about it.

    tell those who found his Ricin in the UK

    a. ricin is not a WMD.

    b. if i may quote CNN:

    U.S. officials said in August that the Islamic extremist group Ansar al-Islam had tested ricin along with other chemical and biological agents in northern Iraq, territory controlled by Kurds, not Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

    c. who says the ricin found (traces only by the way) was made by hussein?

  • grows1
    grows1

    Here is some info I put together on ricin and Hussein crimes. Please note that neither orgs are known as bastions of conservative right wing politics.

    http://www.emedicinehealth.com/articles/42387-1.asp

    Ricin

    Overview

    In attempting to evaluate and discuss substances that could be used as an agent of biological warfare or as a weapon of mass destruction (WMD), the question, "What can cause a maximum credible event?" is hopefully answered, as such: a maximum credible event is one that could cause a large loss of life, in addition to disruption, panic, and overwhelming use of civilian health care resources.

    For an agent to be considered capable of causing a maximum credible event, it should be highly lethal, inexpensively and easily produced in large quantities, stable in aerosol form, and have the ability to be dispersed. The ideal agent is also communicable from person to person and has no treatment or vaccine.

    Ricin is one potent toxin that could potentially be used as an agent of biological warfare or as a WMD. Derived from the beans of the castor plant (Ricinus communis), ricin is widely available. Ricin is also easily and inexpensively produced, is highly toxic, and is stable in aerosolized form. Ricin has no treatment or vaccine, but it is not communicable from person to person.

    Although a large amount of ricin would be necessary to produce the desired effect of a WMD, it would be highly effective as a disabling agent. Ricin can be disseminated as an aerosol, by injection, or as a food and water contaminant. Its use as a food and water contaminant is a major concern because of its ease of availability. If used as a food and water contaminant, ricin could easily incapacitate many people and overwhelm local health care resources.

    In the

    On February 4, 2004, as part of the ongoing investigation as to the source of this most recent ricin attack, the Secret Service acknowledged that ricin had also been found at a White House mail-processing center in early November 2003.

    Based on another published report, a vial containing ricin was found at a post office in , in October 2003. The envelope, addressed to the federal Transportation Department, was labeled ?caution RICIN POISON.? The letter, protesting a proposed federal limit on the number of truckers? hours behind the wheel to go into effect in January 2004, was signed ?Fallen Angel.?

    Officials suspect that the attacks in October 2003 and November 2003 are related because both letters were signed ?Fallen Angel? and contained ricin of poor quality. The FBI is currently investigating whether these two earlier attacks are at all related to the ricin found in the Senate mailroom in February 2004.

    Previously in the , from 1991-1997, 3 cases have been related to ricin.

    In 1991 in , 4 members of the Patriots Council, an extremist group that held antigovernment and antitax ideals and advocated the overthrow of the government, were arrested for plotting to kill a marshal with ricin. The ricin was produced in a home laboratory. They planned to mix the ricin with the solvent dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) and then smear it on the door handles of the marshal's vehicle. The plan was discovered, and the 4 men were convicted.

    In 1995, a man entered from on his way to . Canadian custom officials stopped the man and found him in possession of several guns, $98,000, and a container of white powder, which was identified as ricin.

    In 1997, a man shot his stepson in the face. Investigators discovered a makeshift laboratory in his basement and found agents such as ricin and nicotine sulfate.

    The use of ricin is not limited to the ; cases have been reported elsewhere.

    In December 2002, 6 terrorist suspects were arrested in ; their apartment was serving as a "ricin laboratory." Among them was a 27-year-old chemist who was producing the toxin.

    Later, on , British police raided 2 residences around and found traces of ricin, which led to an investigation of a possible Chechen separatist plan to attack the Russian embassy with the toxin. Several arrests were made.

    Last updated:

    A Human Rights Watch Policy Paper

    December 2002 (Farsi)

    http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/mena/iraq1217bg.htm

    HRW policy on

    Needs to Screen Iraqi Opposition Allies

    Genocide in : The Anfal Campaign Against the Kurds

    Endless Torment

    The 1991 Uprising in And Its Aftermath

    Human Rights Watch Reports on Military Actions

    Needless Deaths in The Gulf War

    More...

    The Arab Ba?ath Socialist Party has been in power in since 1968. Under the leadership of President Saddam Hussein, who seized power in 1979, the Iraqi government has committed a vast number of crimes against the Iraqi people and others, using terror through various levels of police, military, and intelligence agencies to control and intimidate large segments of the Iraqi population.

    Two Iraqi groups in particular have suffered horrific abuses?the Kurds in the north, and Shi`a populations in the south. Two decades of oppression against ?s Kurds and Kurdish resistance culminated in 1988 with a genocidal campaign, and the use of chemical weapons, against Kurdish civilians, resulting in over 100,000 deaths. After the 1991 Gulf War, in the aftermath of a popular uprising in the South, Iraq drained the marsh regions and sent in the military with tanks to shell and burn villages, causing tens of thousands of Marsh Arabs, who are Shi`a, to flee to Iran. The Iraqi military has also used chemical weapons in its war against Iran, committed serious human rights violations during its occupation of Kuwait, and committed other crimes????Saddam Hussein and others, including, but not limited to, members of Hussein's inner circle, members of the Revolutionary Command Council, and senior and upper-middle level members of the Iraqi military, security, and intelligence forces are responsible for a vast number of crimes that constitute genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. The victims of such crimes include up to 290,000 persons who have been ?disappeared? since the late 1970s, many of whom are believed to have been killed. ?????..Attacks against the Iraqi Kurds. The government?s notorious attacks on the Iraqi Kurds have come in phases. Between 1977 and 1987, some 4,500-5,000 Kurdish villages were systematically destroyed and their inhabitants forcibly removed and made to live in ?resettlement camps.? ??.Commencing in the spring of 1987, thousands of Iraqi Kurds were killed during chemical and conventional bombardments.

    From February to September 1988, the Iraqi government launched the official ?Anfal? campaign, during which Iraqi troops swept through the highlands of Iraqi Kurdistan rounding up everyone who remained in government-declared ?prohibited zones.? More than 100,000 Kurds, mostly men and boys, were trucked to remote sites and executed.3

    The use of chemical weapons reached a peak in March 1988; in the town of alone, where a documented 3,200 people are believed to have died from chemical gas attacks, and the actual number may be more than 5,000.

    The killings constitute acts of genocide. The killings, forcible and arbitrary transfer of populations, and chemical weapons attacks amount to crimes against humanity??Repression of the Marsh Arabs and other Shi`a. During the early years of the Iran-Iraq war, the Iraqi government arrested thousands of Shi`a Muslims on the charge of supporting the 1979 revolution in . Many have ?disappeared? or remain unaccounted for; others died under torture or were executed. This campaign was followed by the forced expulsion of over half a million Shi`a during the 1980s to , after the separation out of many male family members. These men and boys, estimated to number between 50,000-70,000, were arrested and imprisoned indefinitely without charge; most remain unaccounted for.

    ????There have also been a staggering number of ?disappearances??believed to range between 250,000-290,000. In addition to the 50,000-70,000 Shi?a cases described above, and the 100,000 Kurdish victims, ?disappearances? have included:

    An estimated 8,000 Barzani males removed from resettlement camps in Iraqi Kurdistan in 1983;

    10,000 or more males said to have been separated from Feyli Kurdish families deported to during the 1980s;

    Shi`a Muslim clerics and their students from al-Najaf and ;

    Over 600 Kuwaitis and third country nationals who disappeared after their arrest during the occupation of ........

    you can easily find all the info you ever wanted to know thru google.

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Ahh, love that censorship! Perhaps [insult removed] was too strong of language. Instead, Berthen, you have absolutely nothing intelligent to add to the conversation. Is that better?

    yeru,

    * a million dead iraqis because of hussein? lets keep it realistic ok!? The mass graves aren't realistic enough for you? Perhaps you really should change your name to Unrealistic!

    what killed these people was the UN/US sanctions! how ridiculous can you be at one moment in time? So, because of Sanctions that were ignored and violated, Saddam took over 300,000 people out in the middle of no where in the middle of the night and shot, tortured, gassed, and mangled them? WOW! And here all the time I thought it was because Saddam was a paranoid megalomaniac who had people killed for looking at him the wrong way. And the folks he gassed in northern Iraq...all those mothers and babies...that was because he ANTICIPATED the UN Sanctions at some future date.and don't start with the oil for food program...that was established in 1995 a point where the people had already died. and it still denied iraqis vital drugs medical supplies etc. And all this time Saddam was building 11 palaces...all with Oil for Food money...that he was stealing, with the help of UN officials.

    * the dead israelis? the one guy who died from a heart attack because a scud crash in his yard? please! No, oh near sited one, the hundreds that have died because of the support Saddam gave Al Aqsa

    * remember that the US had no problem with hussein fighting iran ...right!?!?! where was the moral concern back then? I'm not the US, I'm me...while I understand the US aiding Hussein, the US has had a problem of supporting the wrong idiots to counter other idiots.

    * he was a threat to the kuwaity royal family in 1990...no question about it. And the thousands of killed Kuwaitis, the pillaged country, the rapes, the murders, those were all only Royal Family...right.

    tell those who found his Ricin in the UK

    a. ricin is not a WMD. Really? Actually, yes it is.

    b. if i may quote CNN:

    U.S. officials said in August that the Islamic extremist group Ansar al-Islam had tested ricin along with other chemical and biological agents in northern Iraq, territory controlled by Kurds, not Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

    c. who says the ricin found (traces only by the way) was made by hussein? We don't know for sure, but that's the direction the evidence is pointing.

    Maybe you're right, we should put Saddam back in power...why don't YOU go live there when he does...

  • talesin
    talesin

    In answer to the question,

    No, I do not feel that Bush needs to apologize for the 9-11 attacks.

    The perpetrators are responsible, the terrorists. If he had been able to prevent 9-11, they would have found another way. IMO Let's not lose sight of that reality.

    talesin

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Tale,

    Thanks for keeping us on track, I concur with your statement 100%.

  • Realist
    Realist

    yeru,

    The mass graves aren't realistic enough for you? Perhaps you really should change your name to Unrealistic!

    ok perhaps you can list the number of mass graves found and the number of victims found. as far as i remember the number is not even close to what you claim. making up numbers is easy...proving them is hard.

    how ridiculous can you be at one moment in time? So, because of Sanctions that were ignored and violated, Saddam took over 300,000 people out in the middle of no where in the middle of the night and shot, tortured, gassed, and mangled them? WOW! And here all the time I thought it was because Saddam was a paranoid megalomaniac who had people killed for looking at him the wrong way. And the folks he gassed in northern Iraq...all those mothers and babies...that was because he ANTICIPATED the UN Sanctions at some future date.

    no one says hussein is a nice fellow! he was a dictator who did everything to stay in control.

    300.000 is a pure speculation without any foundation. again how many dead people were actually found!

    madleine albraight (you might remember this piece of s***) stated that the death of 800.000 iraqis due to the embargo was worth it because of the threat posed by hussein.

    the people he gassed in northern iraq (about 3800) were fighting against iraq to gain independance. killing these civilians was certainly an atrocity but nothing the US has not done itself. so please don't play mr. "human rights" here!

    And all this time Saddam was building 11 palaces...all with Oil for Food money...that he was stealing, with the help of UN officials.

    again it is not my position to defent this guy! but to blame the palaces for the starved people (who starved mostly before the food for oil program started (3 or 4 years after the war!)) is rediculous.

    No, oh near sited one, the hundreds that have died because of the support Saddam gave Al Aqsa

    do you have a credible link connecting hussein to any attacks?

    And the thousands of killed Kuwaitis, the pillaged country, the rapes, the murders, those were all only Royal Family...right.

    once again i do not intend to defend crimes but the things you post are not accurate. about 1000 people were killed in kuwait during the iraq invasion. but then again you still believe the iraqis threw the babies out of the incubators.

    Really? Actually, yes it is.

    is that so? please show me a credible link on that. it was studied as possible weapon but was never actually used.

    We don't know for sure, but that's the direction the evidence is pointing.

    thats the problem ...nothing is proven everything is mere speculation! and you guys based a whole war on it.

  • dubla
    dubla

    realist-

    first off let me say that i posted a reply to you in our other thread, but it somehow vanished. ive asked simon twice to let me know if or why it was removed (it certainly didnt break any guidelines), but he refuses to take 30 seconds to acknowlege my queries with a reply.....so, i just let it die. we can continue that one if youd like, but im not sure we were going anywhere but circles regardless.

    300.000 is a pure speculation without any foundation. again how many dead people were actually found!

    if only it took a day or two to unearth 300,000 bodies in 200+ gravesites. of course they havent all been found yet, and yes it is speculation based on information gathered from iraqis.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3253783.stm

    so, u.s. officials reported there could be as many as 260 grave sites, according to the information the iraqis have provided. lets say you think that number is completely fabricated, and way overboard......lets cut it in half. so, 130 grave sites..... 300,000 / 130 = 2300 (approx) bodies per grave site. considering there were 15,000 bodies in the one double grave site alone, i dont think 2300 sounds far fetched in the least. and if indeed there are 200+ graves, that brings the number down to around 1500, most likely much lower than the actual number of bodies in each grave. ive seen estimates of over a million iraqis missing during saddams regime....but maybe they all came over to miami on rafts and tires.

    personally, im wondering why you are even arguing against these numbers.? if 1,000,000 bodies were unearthed in iraq this year, would it make any difference to your side of the saddam debates whatsoever? i highly doubt it would, but maybe im wrong. if the actual numbers are pointless to you in the long run, its pretty unproductive to pick them apart just for the sake of arguing, isnt it?

    aa

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    yeru,
    The mass graves aren't realistic enough for you? Perhaps you really should change your name to Unrealistic!

    ok perhaps you can list the number of mass graves found and the number of victims found. as far as i remember the number is not even close to what you claim. making up numbers is easy...proving them is hard.
    how ridiculous can you be at one moment in time? So, because of Sanctions that were ignored and violated, Saddam took over 300,000 people out in the middle of no where in the middle of the night and shot, tortured, gassed, and mangled them? WOW! And here all the time I thought it was because Saddam was a paranoid megalomaniac who had people killed for looking at him the wrong way. And the folks he gassed in northern Iraq...all those mothers and babies...that was because he ANTICIPATED the UN Sanctions at some future date.

    no one says hussein is a nice fellow! he was a dictator who did everything to stay in control.

    300.000 is a pure speculation without any foundation. again how many dead people were actually found!

    madleine albraight (you might remember this piece of s***) stated that the death of 800.000 iraqis due to the embargo was worth it because of the threat posed by hussein.

    the people he gassed in northern iraq (about 3800) were fighting against iraq to gain independance. killing these civilians was certainly an atrocity but nothing the US has not done itself. so please don't play mr. "human rights" here!
    And all this time Saddam was building 11 palaces...all with Oil for Food money...that he was stealing, with the help of UN officials.

    again it is not my position to defent this guy! but to blame the palaces for the starved people (who starved mostly before the food for oil program started (3 or 4 years after the war!)) is rediculous.
    No, oh near sited one, the hundreds that have died because of the support Saddam gave Al Aqsa

    do you have a credible link connecting hussein to any attacks?
    And the thousands of killed Kuwaitis, the pillaged country, the rapes, the murders, those were all only Royal Family...right.

    once again i do not intend to defend crimes but the things you post are not accurate. about 1000 people were killed in kuwait during the iraq invasion. but then again you still believe the iraqis threw the babies out of the incubators.
    Really? Actually, yes it is.

    is that so? please show me a credible link on that. it was studied as possible weapon but was never actually used.
    We don't know for sure, but that's the direction the evidence is pointing.

    thats the problem ...nothing is proven everything is mere speculation! and you guys based a whole war on it.

    Links to Al Aqsa?

    http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/06/19/1023864454350.html

    http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1571/41_18/95358025/p1/article.jhtml

    The suicide bomber is glorified long after his death. The dead bombers stare out of posters plastered across the West Bank and Gaza. Their deeds are extolled in graffiti emblazoned across their houses. There is also a supremely practical element; the families of the bombers receive $A50,000 from a Palestinian party aligned with and funded by Saddam Hussein. Saudi Arabia and Arafat's administration also pay for the families of bombers (and all Palestinians killed in the uprising) to make a pilgrimage to Mecca.

    Mass Graves? 300,000 is the conservative estimate.

    http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/27000.htm

    Madeline Albright said this when?

    madleine albraight (you might remember this piece of s***) stated that the death of 800.000 iraqis due to the embargo was worth it because of the threat posed by hussein.

    As far as I can remember the number listed by the UN is 500,000...and that number was taken directly from the Iraqi government (Saddam) with no basis for citing such a number.

    So, first, I doubt the numbers...secondly...it's SADAM's fault, all he had to do was comply with the Cease Fire agreement that his government signed.

    again it is not my position to defent this guy! but to blame the palaces for the starved people (who starved mostly before the food for oil program started (3 or 4 years after the war!)) is rediculous.

    You've put yourself in the position of defending Saddam. It's not just the palaces, it's all the other corruption that went along with it. If you want to blame someone, blame Saddam, it was HIS INVASION of Kuwait that started the first war, it was his refusal to live up to the ceasefire agreement that brought about the sanctions.

    thats the problem ...nothing is proven everything is mere speculation! and you guys based a whole war on it.

    Realist,

    Here's the facts of life in international politics...and reinforced by what happened on 9-11...if we wait for the kind of PROOF you want, we'd all be dead first. Clinton didn't want to take Bin Laden from the Sudanese because he didn't have a "legal reason" to detain him.

    Had GWBush had information about 9-11, and used that to launch an attack against Afghanistan, the world would have cried out...it has loud enough already even with the SOLID evidence of the Taliban supporting AQ.

    We can no longer afford to wait for the kind of proof you want...we take our best guess,,,and we hope we're right.

  • Realist
    Realist

    yeru,

    the 500.000 refer to only children (the others were primarily old and sick people). i would be greatful if you could provide a link that can verify that the UN just copied the numbers from hussein. that would be quite surprising. and even more surprising would be that albraight admitted the numbers.

    The suicide bomber is glorified long after his death. The dead bombers stare out of posters plastered across the West Bank and Gaza. Their deeds are extolled in graffiti emblazoned across their houses. There is also a supremely practical element; the families of the bombers receive $A50,000 from a Palestinian party aligned with and funded by Saddam Hussein. Saudi Arabia and Arafat's administration also pay for the families of bombers (and all Palestinians killed in the uprising) to make a pilgrimage to Mecca.

    yes i am familiar with hussein paying the families. i don't think 25.000$ (the amount coming from hussein) for the relatives will convince too many people to blow themselfs up.

    regarding the mass graves, i now the numbers. and i know that the US gov published them. i have not seen any reasonable source for this number however and i have not seen any number of excavated bodies that would come close to what they "estimated".

    i am not defending saddam. but i am not accepting all the BS reported about him. again its bad enough what the guy really did....doesn't need a spicing up. and as you said ...one has to pick the smaller evil.

    clinton actually did so some things...he bombed two baby food factories (or something like that) plus an al quaeda camp in afghanistan. so he was not so law abiding as you say.

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    http://www.casi.org.uk/info/garfield/dr-garfield.html#Conclusions

    One source.

    Realist,

    Why not blame Saddam for the Sanctions?

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