All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped 287 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Deputy Dog

  UnDisfellowshipped You said:
  

  True, in that Verse (Matthew 23:37), Jesus was also talking about the Jews in general, not only the Pharisees. Even so, Jesus clearly said that He WANTED to save THE JEWS, including the Pharisees, but that THEY WOULD NOT HAVE IT!

  Sorry! But, NOT True! John 8:39-44 seems to put a little more light on the subject. Verse 39: They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. Then verses 42 thru 44: Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. So when we read Matthew 23:37 with this in mind, I think it is safe to say, He did not include the Pharisees (the hinderers) with the "children". He did not see them (the Pharisees ) as Gods' children at all! One more thing here, didn't you read verse 13 of this chapter? But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves , neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. L ook like hindering to me, and explains verse 37 perfectly! So when you ask,
  

  "Weren't the Pharisees the ones who were murderers of the prophets and children of those who murdered prophets?"

  The Bible says NO! The Pharisees hindered and were not willing that the children be gathered. Now, about the children. Romans 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. This tells me that just because someone was a Jew they were not counted as seed of the promise (or Gods' elect).

  Next you said,
  

  "First Jesus told them "How can you escape Gehenna?", but then He tells them that He is sending prophets to them. Why would Jesus send prophets to the Pharisees unless they had the choice to repent and be saved?"

  No matter how many times I read 23:1-36 His love for those " Serpents, brood of vipers" is so heart warming. (sorry!) This is pure condemnation! I don't see any offer of a choice to repent. Starting in verse 29 He tells them what they and their fathers are guilty of, then declares or prophesies what they are going to be guilty of, before they get their final condemnation in Gehenna. Did Jesus "force" Lazarus back to life? Jesus did not force me to be saved! I was DEAD in my sin. He brought my spirit to life! I did not choose my 2nd birth any more then my 1st. If you want to call that "force" OK. Next you list over 20 quotes from scripture some of which actually make my point. Is Jesus really the Savior of the world? I mean every body in the whole world? We can discuss these scriptures if you like, but please, one at a time! I have to work for a living and I type with one finger. Finally on your next post you ask:
  

  "Also, Deputy Dog, don't you believe that when God created Adam and Eve, He gave them freedom to choose whether or not to sin?"

  My answer is, probably not! He gave them a will though, a will that is mostly not in accord with His, unless He
  intervene s. Then you list a bunch more verses. My thoughts on the first one (Mark 3:35) briefly stated goes something like this: It is not Gods' will that everyone is Jesus' spiritual "brother" or "sister" or "mother". Again please, one at a time! I also think God created sin, but that's a topic for another day. D Dog
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  LittleToe

  Hoob:You are placing yourself in the role of a "Sacred Namer", in your post.

  I think that the early writings show that Christians prior to 325AD believed that Jesus was both God and man.

  I completely agree, and John 20:28 was a revelation to me, when I was grappling with accepting (mind attempting to battle Spirit) Christ's deity in scripture.
  However there is a wide range of belief amongst Unitarians, one of which is that Christ has the role and title of God, but to the power of the Father.
  I don't subscribe to it myself, but that's their belief, and to all intents and purposes their fruits bear testimony to their calling.
  The final analysis will be on the last day. Meanwhile, we all look through a hazy mirror...
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  I'm going to try and stay focused on discussing the Trinity inside this Thread, and maybe, if I have time, I can discuss salvation and freedom to choose God later.

  Herk said:

  People were confused about the Trinity long before the WT Society came into existence. It is debatable whether the WT has misrepresented the Trinity in view of their many quotations from Trinitarian sources. Surely they haven't distorted the meaning of every single one of the hundreds of word-for-word quotations found in their literature! You misrepresent the facts by passing blame on the WTS and others.

  Obviously you have not studied in-depth the "Should You Believe in the Trinity" Booklet's "quotes", which were mostly taken out of context.

  I do agree that confusion has existed about the Trinity before the WTS came about.

  However, this Website is mainly made up of Ex-JW's and JW's, so, I figured I would mention the fact that the Society has lied and misrepresented what the vast majority of Trinitarians actually believe and teach.

  Do you have a problem with that? If so, why?

  Herk said:

  Trinitarians themselves say their doctrine is a mystery and that it is unexplainable, that it must be accepted on faith rather than on the basis of logic and reason.

  The doctrine of God being ETERNAL in both directions is also a mystery that is unexplainable, and must be accepted on faith rather than on the basis logic and reason.

  The doctrine of God creating everything out of NOTHING is also a mystery and is unexplainable and must be accepted on faith rather than on the basis of logic and reason.

  The doctrine of God The Father transferring the Life of Jesus Christ inside of Mary from Heaven is also a mystery and is unexplainable and must be accepted on faith rather than on the basis of logic and reason.

  The doctrine of God knowing, seeing, hearing ALL THINGS at ALL TIMES and being in ALL PLACES at the same time, is also a mystery and is unexplainable and must be accepted on faith rather than on the basis of logic and reason.

  So, what is your point Herk? Why do you constantly keep saying that the Trinity is a "mystery"? What does that prove one way or the other?

  The Bible itself says that God becoming Human is a MYSTERY:

  1st Timothy 3:16 (KJV): And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

  Herk said:

  So please call a spade a spade. Confusion exists concerning the Trinity basically because Trinitarians themselves are not in agreement about its meaning. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western traditions regarding the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Some television evangelists differ greatly from the Reformed Churches in their concept of Christ?s divinity while he was on earth. Yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position. Surely if the Trinity were a part of Bible doctrine, and especially if one had to believe it to be saved, it would be clearly defined in Scripture. Yet there is no Trinitarian formula in the Bible and Trinitarians themselves cannot agree on a definition. If one is to believe in the Trinity, how is he to know which definition is correct, since none appears in the Bible?

  So, are you trying to claim that it does not matter which "Jesus Christ" or which "God" you believe in because the Bible does not contain a clearly defined statement of who Jesus is or who God is? What are you saying?

  Are you saying that the Bible does not clearly state who God is? I'm trying to get your point.

  Hundreds of different denominations, churches, cults, and religions DISAGREE on WHO JESUS is -- Trinitarian and NON-Trinitarian -- so are you saying that we should simply STOP believing in Jesus because there is confusion about Him?

  Herk said:

  Trinitarians contend that ?the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and together they make one God.? That expression is not in the Bible, and it is illogical. They teach that Jesus is both 100 percent man and 100 percent God. However, God invented logic and mathematics. He gave us mental and spiritual abilities that enable us to know him and his world. He did not intend that we should understand three persons when he said that he is ?One God.? And just as he did not give us the ability to fathom a round square, he did not give us the ability to make 100 percent +100 percent = 100 percent, without putting aside the laws of mathematics that he designed.

  Herk, according to the Apostle Paul, you should read the Bible and have FAITH instead of relying on human wisdom:

  1st Corinthians 2: 4-8 (NKJV): And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

  1st Corinthians 2: 13-14 (NKJV): These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

  After all Herk, can you explain using logic and math how God has always existed and never began?

  Herk said:

  The blame for confusion about the Trinity rests entirely at the feet of Trinitarians.

  I find it amazing that you lump all Trinitarians together as one! You lump Protestant, Baptist, Catholic, etc, etc, together as "Trinitarians".

  And yet, you won't find me lumping all of the Non-Trinitarians together as one, like the JW's, Mormons, Christadelphians, etc, etc.

  Roman Catholics believe in worshiping Saints, the Virgin Mary, angels, the Pope, etc. The Catholics have their confessions, creeds, and their entirely non-Biblical doctrines and churches.

  So, MUCH of the confusion about God and about Jesus IN GENERAL (about the Trinity or not about the Trinity), comes from the Roman Catholic Church!

  Confusion exists over whether or not Jesus even existed, and definitely over WHO He is -- Some scholars claim He was just a good teacher; some new age religions teach that He was a human who received the "Christ Consciousness"; Muslims claim He was just a prophet; JW's claim He is Michael the Archangel; Mormons claim He was the brother of Lucifer; Catholics claim He actually is the Bread and the Wine; Gnostics claimed He never was Human; Oneness Pentecostals claim that He is The Father and The Spirit; Trinitarians believe He is God Almighty, a distinct Person from The Father and The Spirit; Herk claims He is an inferior, lesser, created separate being from The Father.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Deputy Dog,

  I thank you for replying.

  I definitely do disagree with you on several points.

  Deputy Dog said:

  I also think God created sin, but that's a topic for another day.

  James 1:13 (KJV): Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man

  2nd Chronicles 19:7 (KJV): Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do [it]: for [there is] no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

  Deuteronomy 32:4 (KJV): [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.

  Job 34:10 (KJV): Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, [that he should do] wickedness; and [from] the Almighty, [that he should commit] iniquity.

  Job 36:23 (KJV): Who hath enjoined him his way? or who can say, Thou hast wrought iniquity?

  Romans 9:4 (KJV): What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Deputy Dog:

  Here is the biggest Scripture which shows extremely clearly that God DESIRES to save ALL MEN:

  1st Timothy 2:1-7: Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle--I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying--a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

  What is your explanation of those Verses?

  The Bible clearly teaches that God The Father placed each and every sin for each and every human who has ever lived onto the Body of Christ on the Cross, so that Jesus died for ALL MEN from ALL TIME.

  However, only the people who put their faith in the True Jesus will receive the free gift of salvation by grace through faith.

  If I offered you a free gift, and then you rejected it, it would not be yours.

  However, if I offered you a free gift, and you accepted it, it would then be yours forever, and I could not come back and demand it back from you later.

  Deputy Dog said:

  So when you ask,

  (Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) "Weren't the Pharisees the ones who were murderers of the prophets and children of those who murdered prophets?" (End of Quote)

  The Bible says NO!

  Jesus clearly said that the Pharisees were "the children of those who murdered the prophets", and then Jesus goes on to say that He wants to save the "children of those who murdered the prophets":

  Matthew 23:31: Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

  Matthew 23:37: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

  But, I'm not saying I am absolutely right on this. I could be wrong. You could be right. Jesus may not have been talking about wanting to save the Pharisees in Verse 37.

  Jesus could have been speaking about wanting to save all the children of Jerusalem, but, notice what Jesus also says:

  Luke 19:41-44: And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things [which belong] unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

  Obviously not all of Jerusalem's children were saved, even though Jesus said He wanted to save them.

  Also, why would Jesus weep over people who God never wanted to save?

  Also, read Mark 10:21.
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  Mrs Ozzie

  Thank you for such a well thought out and researched post. I am going to print this out to keep to help anyone who is "searching". It must have taken you a great deal of time but very well worth your effort. It's great to have all those wonderful scriptures printed out. This makes it so much easier for anyone questioning. Then hopefully they can check the scriptures themselves at a later "quiet time"

  I encourage anyone to think carefully (and prayerfully) about this post. Everything we were taught as "truth" is 'upside down'. Now is the time to be free enough to think for ourselves, letting the Holy Spirit help us to "see" with unveiled eyes what is really the "truth". Then we are in a position to act on our new found faith.

  Many of us have taught others for years the "truth about the Trinity". We were so sure we had all the answers. We never, ever looked at a different point of view. Now here we are YEARS later having to completely re-think. It is terribly difficult, but SO WORTHWHILE. Things start fitting into place and the jigsaw puzzle starts to come together, It is possible to do but it does take time and effort. From my point of view, just reading the "new testament/christian Greek scriptures" as a letter to you from God (with NO interpretation), is the best way to start. Then all these wonderful scriptures quoted in this post will come alive. Then it's easier to see the whole picture and the Trinity is just a part of it (but a very important part)

  Thanks once again Undisfellowshipped!!!!!! (How have you escaped?????????)

  Mrs Ozzie
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  herk

  Mrs Ozzie,

  Thank you for such a well thought out and researched post.

  If you will think carefully and scripturally, you will discover that Undisfellowshipped has not thought out his subject and has merely repeated the thinking of others. He has gone from one cult (JWs) into another (Trinitarianism).

  It's great to have all those wonderful scriptures printed out.

  The Scriptures teach the truth. However, Undisfellowshipped has inserted the Trinitarian interpretation of the texts he posted. Additionally, he uses many terms, phrases and speculations that are not found in the Bible:

  • Trinity
  • Three-in-Unity
  • The Son and The Spirit willingly submit to The Father's last word, although all Three definitely are involved in the decision-making process.
  • All Three are Equal in their Nature, Essence, Attributes, Powers, and Qualities.
  • A husband has a higher position of authority over the wife, but both share the same nature (human beings), and they are both equal in their nature as human beings. [Herk's comment: However, a husband and wife are separate beings, not one being as the three persons in the Trinity are said to be. Thus the husband-wife illustration is totally inappropriate.]
  • Several modern Translations change this Scripture around, and instead of saying "God was manifested", they say either "who was manifested" or He who was manifested". [Herk's comment: UnDisfellowshipped thus shows his preference for a Bible translation that is out of step with the latest understanding of biblical languages.]
  • Jesus then "emptied Himself" of the external appearance of God and added His Human Nature to His Divine Nature.
  • If Jesus is not Almighty God, then that means Thomas was a polytheist and a blasphemer [and Jesus would be too because Jesus did not correct Thomas, in fact, Jesus commended Thomas!]. [Herk's comment: This shows rejection by UnDisfellowshipped of the Bible's teaching that angels, Moses, David, the judges of Israel and others were called God due to their position as God's special representatives.]
  • Jesus Christ declared that He was God. [Herk's comment: Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. Not once did he ever claim to be God. He clearly stated that the Father is "the only true God."]

  Now is the time to be free enough to think for ourselves, letting the Holy Spirit help us to "see" with unveiled eyes what is really the "truth".

  No one who actually believes in the Trinity is thinking for himself or herself. It took hundreds of years following the completion of the Bible for men to "discover" what was never taught by Jesus, the apostles or any other servant of God in the Bible. After years of disputing, the doctrine was invented and fabricated by men who had gone astray from the Scriptures. There is not a single chapter, paragraph or even a verse that says God is three persons. To argue against inspired statements that clearly say God is "One" and to twist that into "Three" is not letting the Holy Spirit do the teaching. It is the mere following of men who had allowed themselves to be duped by pagan Grecian philosophy.

  Many of us have taught others for years the "truth about the Trinity". We were so sure we had all the answers.

  And that is exactly the same frame of mind that Trinitarians display. Just like JWs, they don't know how to think for themselves. All they can do is repeat what they find in books and articles written by other Trinitarians. Both claim to be guided only by the Bible, but they search the Bible for texts that support their pre-conceived notions rather than let the Bible speak for iteself.

  Now here we are YEARS later having to completely re-think. It is terribly difficult, but SO WORTHWHILE. Things start fitting into place and the jigsaw puzzle starts to come together, It is possible to do but it does take time and effort.

  It did not take years for the apostles to discover who Jesus was. When he asked them who he was, Peter did not say "You are God." Instead, he replied, "You are the Messiah (Anointed One), the Son of the Living God." (Matthew 16:16)

  herk
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  LittleToe

  Herk:
  Trinitarianism is no more cultish than the stuff that you are spouting.
  Do you actually know what a cult is???
  
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  ozziepost

  Actually LT, on that basis Aryanism could be termed a cult!!

  The Trinity doctrine has been played out for nigh on two thousand years and I doubt very much if any of us posters could add anything new to the subject. It's just the same old, same old.

  From what I've experienced, I'm certain it's a matter of faith i.e. no-one will be converted on the basis of the Trinity, but an understanding of the nature of God comes as faith grows in our hearts. If we have it, we have it. That's it. I wouldn't ever waste time proclaiming the nature of God, as we were accustomed to do so assuredly as dubs.

  The message of the Bible is that God sent His Son to reconcile himself to mankind. It's a glorious message that is all the more poignant at this Easter time.

  Cheers and God Bless, Ozzie
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  LittleToe

  Aint THAT the bottom line!

  Every bless to you and the missus, Oz