Kenneson,
Are Augustine and Calvin and other theologians the last word on whether Jesus was the Angel of the Lord? I believe in the Trinity, but I don't believe that Jesus was the Angel of the Lord.
While some trinitarians such as yourself are not convinced that the angel of the Lord is the "2nd Person of the Trinity," you may find the following of interest:
- We must remember, then, that in some cases in the Old Testament God Himself appeared in human form as an angel.--Angels: God's Secret Agents, by Billy Graham (Doubleday), p. 33.
- The person of "the angel of the Lord" finds a counterpart in the personification of Wisdom in the Sapiential books and in at least one passage (Zach., iii, 1) it seems to stand for that "Son of Man" whom Daniel (vii, 13) saw brought before "the Ancient of Days".--Catholic Encyclopedia.
- Tertullian regards many of these passages as preludes to the Incarnation; as the Word of God adumbrating the sublime character in which He is one day to reveal Himself to men (cf. adv, Prax., xvi; adv. Marc., II, 27; III, 9: I, 10, 21, 22). It is possible, then, that in these confused views we can trace vague gropings after certain dogmatic truths regarding the Trinity, reminiscences perhaps of the early revelation of which the Protevangelium in Ge., iii is but a relic. The earlier Fathers, going by the letter of the text, maintained that it was actually God Himself who appeared.--Catholic Encyclopedia.
- As He [Christ] is ?the Son of God?, so also is He the ?angel? or ?messenger? of the Lord.--Cyclopedia of Biblical Theological & Ecclesiastical Literature by McClintock and Strong, Volume I, "Angel", p. 226.
- The formula of earlier dogmaticians is still held by some: Whenever the name of Jahweh or divine works and worship are ascribed to the Angel in Scripture, this Angel must be understood as the Son of God. Accordingly, this angel is often referred to as the Logos or the Angelus increatus, and His appearances are regarded as appearances of the preincarnate Son of God. Others hold that ?the angel of the Lord? is not necessarily to be interpreted as reference to the preincarnate Christ but that manifestations of this ?angel of the Lord? are nonetheless theophanies, or manifestations of God.--Lutheran Christian Cyclopedia.
- The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael (the archangel) with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the ?child? and the archangel in Revelation 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in [Daniel].--The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, 1930, Vol. III, p.2048.
- The appearances of "the Angel of the Lord" to Abraham at Mamre (Gen. 18:2, 22. Compare 19:1), to Jacob at Peniel (Gen. 32:24, 30), to Joshua at Gilgal (Josh. 5:13,15), were of the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. They were "foreshadowings of the incarnation," revelations before the "fullness of the time" of the Son of God.--WebBible Encyclopedia.
What do you believe about Jesus? How are you different in your beliefs on Jesus from Jehovah's Witnesses and Trinitarians, since you seem to say you don't fall in either camp?
In the Bible, when a prophet speaks it is said to be the Lord who speaks, not of course because the prophet is the Lord himself but because the prophet has been commissioned to represent and speak for the Lord. The word of the prophet is equal to the word spoken by the Lord himself. Though the prophet is a mere man, he is to be honored by other men as far superior to themselves. For all intents and purposes, he is God when he speaks since God has put his own words in the mouth of the prophet. This was true of Jesus. Moses had foretold concerning him, "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.'" (Deuteronomy 18:15, 16)
As explained by Peter, this was the view of all the prophets who looked forward to the coming of the Messiah: "Repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. Moses said, 'The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brethren; to him you shall give heed to everything he says to you. And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days." (Acts 3:19-24)
The Jews never expected that the Messiah would be God himself. Neither did the apostles and other earliest Christians. This is clearly evident from the following texts:
- And the crowds were saying, "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee."--Matthew 21:11.
- But others were saying, "He is Elijah." And others were saying, "He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old."--Mark 6:15.
- And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ [Messiah]. And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, then he took him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, "Now Lord, you are releasing your bond-servant to depart in peace, according to your word; for my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light of revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your people Israel." And his father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about him. And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed."--Luke 2:25-34. [Note that Joseph and Mary were amazed, not that Mary's son was God, but that he was the promised Messiah who would have a great effect upon the Gentiles as well as the Jewish nation.]
- Fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, "A great prophet has arisen among us!" and, "God has visited his people!" Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet he would know who and what sort of person this woman is who is touching him, that she is a sinner."--Luke 7:16, 39.
- [Jesus said:] "Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem."--Luke 13:33.
- And he said to them, "What things?" And they said to him, "The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people."--Luke 24:19.
- They asked him [John], "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No." They asked him, and said to him, "Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"--John 1:21, 25.
- The woman said to him, "Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet.--John 4:19.
- Therefore when the people saw the sign which he had performed, they said, "This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world."--John 6:14.
- Some of the people therefore, when they heard these words, were saying, "This certainly is the Prophet."--John 7:40.
- So they said to the blind man again, "What do you say about him, since he opened your eyes?" And he said, "He is a prophet."--John 9:17.
- [Stephen said:] "This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, 'God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brethren.'"--Acts 7:37.
While there are several texts that seem to indicate that Jesus existed before his human conception and birth, they need to be understood as the Jews and Christians understood those texts in Bible times, not with the mindset that prevails today among those who have had Western thinking drummed into them from their youth and upward.
herk
