Heb. 1:6 (even in the NWT !) shows Jesus not to be an angel, but Jehovah

by hooberus 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Love_Truth

Ok. First, as usual we must define the word, in this case, "Angel". I will highlight those definitions that Jesus fits.

DEFINITION:
Angel n [L.angelus; Gr angelos, a messenger]
1. Literally, a messenger [Rare]
2. A spirit, or a spiritual being, employed by God, according to the Scriptures, to communicate his will to man.
3. A ministering or guiding spirit.
4. A conventionalied image of a white-robed figure in human form with wings and a halo
5. A minister of the gospel, or pastor as the angel of the church at Ephesus
6. A person regarded as beautiful, good, innocent etc.
7. An English gold coin current in the fifteenth, sixteenth, and seventeenth centuries; so called from bearing on its obverse a figure of the archangel Michael piercing a dragon.
8. An angelfish
9. A person who provides the money for the destruction of a play , etc [Slang]
- Websters Dictionary 2nd edition (Back to top)

More discussion here:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/9813/#def

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/9813/

http://www.tabernacletypology.com/spiritworld/definition_of_an_angel.htm

My attempt is not to tell you what an Angel is in your definition, only to explain my definition, and why I define Jesus as an Angel.

As I previously mentioned, Jesus is many other unique things as well, including mediator, the means through which God created all things (except Jesus and God himself), etc. But I repeat myself.

So perhaps our disagreement is a semantic one on the issue of whether Jesus is an "Angel"?

However, even if I accept an alternate definition, such as one where you categorize Angels, or Spirit Creatures:

Ambrose	Gregory the Great	John of Damascus	Pseudo-Dionysius	Billy Graham
1. Seraphim	1. Seraphim	1. Seraphim	Triadic 1a. Seraphim	1.Archangels
2. Cherubim	2. Cherubim	2. Cherubim	1b. Cherubim	2.Angels
3. Powers	3.Thrones	3.Thrones	1c. Thrones	3.Seraphim
4. Dominions	4. Dominions	4. Dominions	Triadic 2a. Dominions	4.Cherubim
5. Thrones	5. Principalities	5. Powers	2b. Powers	5.Principalities
6. Archangels	6. Powers	6. Authorities	2c. Authorities	6.Authorities
7. Angels	7. Virtues	7. Rulers	Triadic 3a. Principalities	7. Powers
	8. Archangels	8. Archangels	3b. Archangels	8.Thrones
	9. Angels	9. Angels	3c. Angels	9.Might
				10.Dominion

I've already stated that Jesus is second only to God (Hebrews 1), that he has authority over all the other Angels (or Spirit creatures, if you like), except for God, YHWH.

We could then further clarify the situation in question (Is Jesus God):

1 Corinthians 15:20-28: 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." [3] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Philippians 2:9-11:

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

So, your original intent to deify the Son is proven wrong. I trust you are familiar with the fact that the Trinity Doctine arose from the Nicean Council, roughly 300 years after Christ's death. Jesus Christ, and His Apostles, made his nature clear- not God. We could argue tthe Trinity from now 'till the cows come home. I'm well read and researched on the subject, and I frankly find it grasping at straws, full of convoluted reasoning. So I won't beat that one to death, because other threads have already done so, and the evidence is overwhelming that YHWH is God, not Jesus Christ, although he may rightly be called a god.

Here's the good news- I can't see where believing either way afffects salvation. It's not a salvation issue, more a doctine of division. Christ promoted unity, so I've said enough already.

Cheers,

Love_Truth

LittleToe

Love_Truth:
It's not a salvation issue, more a doctine of division.

And, IMHO, that's the bottom line!
gumby

Here's the good news- I can't see where believing either way afffects salvation. It's not a salvation issue, more a doctine of division. Christ promoted unity, so I've said enough already.

I always wanted to believe this when I was a believer.......but I had a hard time in doing so. I was NEVER content not to know if Jesus was God or not. It bothered me to the point of questioning Christianity which has made my minset on this issue what it is today.
I wanted to know if I was addressing Jesus or his dad when I prayed. I figured It should NOT be a mystery WHO god/ Jesus is. Alan F helped me greatly at that time, and helped me appreciate there was no biblical solidity to believe the "Trinity Doctrine". I was so frustrated in NOT believing it, then believing it, then not believing it.......I felt like I was re-living the society's "tacking in the wind" bullshit.
Since I "questioned" Christianity and it's history, ......I learned MANY things along the way about it.I have no regrets in "checking it out".
Gumby
Gumby
LittleToe

Gumby:
I think Thomas said it best in John 20:28, regardless of whether you're a Pantheist, Polytheist, Trinitarian, Binatarian, Unitarian, or Rastafarian...
To imply that a comprehensive understanding of "the Divine" is necessary for salvation is, IMHO, ludicrous.
I'm glad that you continue to look and learn. It's a lifelong process, huh? And then we die!
gumby

John 20:28
Good point LT!
I never looked at that scripture before in that light.......but it fits in this scenario eh? Perhaps ' Thomas' was as baffled as many are today on who Jesus really is/was.
Gumby
FirstInLine

Love_Truth,
You can pull out any dictionary definition of "angel" you want. Paul makes a dichotomy between all "angel" angels and Jesus. Live with it. You still didnt tell us what his message was since you say he wasnt making a dichotomy.
hooberus

The term "angel" can have a variety of applications. However in the context of Hebrews, I believe that it refers to angels in the common sense as used today (ie: spirit creatures such as Michael, commonly depicted in artwork as having "wings" , "halos", etc.). This can be seen by looking at the Old Testament passages quoted in Hebrews.
Psalm 8
4: What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5: For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6: Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Hebrews 2
5: For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6: But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7: Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Obviously the term "angels" used in Psalm 8 (quoted in Hebrews) refers to spirit creatures such as Michael, Gabriel, etc. and does not merely mean "messenger" as the term can be generally have the meaning of.
onacruse

I've been following this thread with some considerable interest , and, in terms of what the JWs have said and done, may I quote from the KIT (Hebrews 1:6):
..."And let all God's angels worship him."
Also as in the main-text NWT, but subsequently changed (gosh, wonder why??? ).
(References available, on request)
hooberus

I've already stated that Jesus is second only to God (Hebrews 1), that he has authority over all the other Angels (or Spirit creatures, if you like), except for God, YHWH.

Hebrews is talking about Jesus Christ who is both God and man having authority over the angels, it is not talking about a prominent angel having authority over the "other" angels.
1 Corinthians 15:20-28: 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." [3] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
1 Corinthians 15:27 is talking about God putting all things under the man Jesus Christ's feet, not the feet of an angel (as in spirit creature).
Jesus Christ -The man to whom God "put all things under his feet"
"What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:" Psalm 8:4-6 "For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him." 1 Corinthians 15:27 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church," Ephesians 1:22

Ths scriptures state that it is a "man" who God will put all things under his feet. This is applied to Jesus Christ in 1 Corinthians 15:27; Ephesians 1:22; Hebrews 2:6-8) The phrase "man"/ "son of man" occurrs to my knowledge in three places in the Psalms (Psalm 8:4; 80:17; 144:3) and seems to always refer to human beings (look at the context). Thus the Watchtowers claim that Jesus is not still a man is unscriptural.
All things subject to an angel ?
The Watchtower claims that Jesus is an angel to whom God put all things under. However, Hebrews 2:5 indicates that the world cannot be subject to angels (Hebrews 2:6-8 then goes on to quote Psalm 8 about all things being under man.)
"What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:" Psalm 8:4-6 "For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." Hebrews 2:5-8
Summary: The scriptures show that Jesus Christ is a man to whom God "put all things under his feet", and also that He is not an angel to whom things have been subjected.
Kenneson

From 1 Peter 3:22: "He [Jesus Christ] is at God's right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."

Heb. 1:6 (even in the NWT !) shows Jesus not to be an angel, but Jehovah

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