Visit From Elders

by laurelin 66 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  laurelin

  It's been awhile since I've been on here. Due to death in the family, chicken pox in children and other nasty things.

  I posted here awhile ago about things I had found the unsettled me. I was due to have a visit from two elders and a lot of you gave me lots of help and encouragement.

  Well, the two elders visited and I have to admit that it was nothing like I expected.

  They sat down, and told me straight away that there was nothing I could say or ask that would hurt me. I asked them outright that was there anything I could say to them that would get me marked or disfellowshipped for being apostate and they replied no.

  My husband was in the room with me (he's never had a problem with the Society and is one of these that accepts what he's told.) and he stood witness for me.

  Okay I thought... I bet you don't expect this lot though and I began. I started with the NGO business and worked through 1874, 1925, 1975 etc and they sat and listened to me. I mean they really listened, they even asked questions as one of the elders was aware of the NGO business but the other one wasn't.

  I expected a long lecture about not looking backwards, light getting brighter and just to rely on Jehovah but they didn't.

  One of them said that he was actually there when Bro ? (name escapes me) stood on the platform and asked "what's the time brothers?". He said everyone looked at their watches and he said "No, brothers, what's the time?" etc. They didn't deny anything.

  They even stated that there are some things in the watchtower which isn't always right and one of them said that he hears some brothers say things from the platform and he shudders because it's just so off beam. I know that the society don't claim to be inspired or infalliable but I still expected everything to be right because they are god's organisation.

  I said how Jehovah never gave Moses a clouded law or a set of instructions that were vague and given to changing on a whim and one of them took me on a very intersting and (I admit sometimes confusing) trot through Galations and Psalms. He said that Paul was writting to them because they had asked the same thing. They wanted to keep to the law because it spelt out to them what they had to do and not to do. But that Jesus had done away with the Law and now brought in a Law of Freedom which required thinking, conscience and living by two laws. He said it gave the people more freedom and it meant they had to think about the way they served Jehovah rather than act like robots.

  I also asked about everyone dying that wasn't a baptised witness or their children and they both said that they didn't believe that. One of them quoted the scripture that states "A great crowd of people no man will be able to number" and said that if it were just witnesses then it would be a number easily counted. I said how I find it hard to accept that a person who has spent their entire lives helping other people (eg Red Cross workers in other countries) and sees things that make them doubt God exsists or cares would be killed at Armeggedon just because they failed to listen to the Witnesses.

  And he agreed and said that Jehovah knows everyone's heart and will judge on that alone. I replied that the brother at our group study the other week stated catagorically that everyone who has been witnesssed to and rejects it will die. He replied that he has seen nothing in the watchtower to back that up and more importantly he has seen nothing in the bible to back that up.

  Which leaves me floundering a little and quite a bit angry at the brothers who jump on the platform and state things they can't prove. (The marriage to ressurected ones is a sore point with my mum having lost my dad in death. She's determined to marry him again, but there are brothers who seem to delight in taking that scripture and trying to prove that anyone ressurected won't get married again. It merely states (to my mind) that ones ressurected aren't married, thus not putting some people in a pickle if they go through Armeggedon with one husband to have another one ressurected.)

  I'm still dangling at the cross roads. I want so very much to believe it and I can't get around the two main things that they have going for them. Love (yeah I know sometimes it just doesn't show itself, but when push comes to shove they do pull together, which you don't see in any other religion on such an organised scale.) and the preaching work.

  Others do preach but not on the scale or with the intensity (and I have to admit, success) the witnesses have.

  There is also Satan. I don't doubt his existance and it stands to reason that if the society is God's Organisation then he's going to do all he can to get people away from it.

  And something else they pointed out to me: Imperfection. It's unreasonable to expect the society won't suffer from imperfection and louse up big time too. I did some research on the CDROM and I found a few quotes where they actually admitted they held responsibilty for 1975 so it's not like they deny culparability. (yb80 pg31) They don't seem to deny anything ( having said that a lot of stuff is just not mentioned, such as the star of Alcyone, Russells pyramid etc).

  Your thoughts on this would be appreciated as I'd like to get both sides of things before I make a decision one way or the other.

  Thankyou.
• 

  Maverick

  I remember when I was a teenager I would get in arguments with my folks about things I felt strongly about. And often I did not have all the facts or understand the issue as well as I thought I did. They would blow me out of the water. I would walk away frustrated and confused. I believed I understood the world around me at 17 and that I had all the answers though I couldn't explain it well enough. A friend said not to argue with them. Just agree and give them nothing to get passionate about. When I did this the heated sessions quickly stopped. They took my silence for acceptance. These Elders did the same to you that I did to my folks. Don't be fooled by how two men acted at your house. Bottomline the whole WTS. Trust your gut feelings! Maverick
• 

  Celia

  I did some research on the CDROM and I found a few quotes where they actually admitted they held responsibilty for 1975 so it's not like they deny culparability. (yb80 pg31)

  Hi Laurelin, (love that name... I have a niece with that same name)

  The WTS never admitted that they made a mistake promoting the 1975 date. They accused their followers of reading too much into what was said in the magazines and during meetings.... I am sure someone can quote their exact wording. I may go look.

  Here is one, WT76-7/15

  11 It may be that some who have been serving God have planned their lives according to a mistaken view of just what was to happen on a certain date or in a certain year. They may have, for this reason, put off or neglected things that they otherwise would have cared for. But they have missed the point of the Bible's warnings concerning the end of this system of things, thinking that Bible chronology reveals the specific date.
• 

  Celia

  Sorry, posted twice
• 

  GermanXJW

  Found here: http://www.geocities.com/paulblizard/seventy5.html
  
  The Society itself candidly acknowledged some responsibility for the hopes raised by the 1975 expectation. The 1980 Yearbook, on pages 30-31, mentioned a talk given at the 1979 District Conventions, by the title of "Choosing the Best Way of Life." The talk "acknowledged the Society's responsibility for some of the disappointment a number felt regarding 1975." What did this talk say?
  
  The March 15, 1980 Watchtower article "Choosing the Best Way of Life" contains, on pages 17-18, a partial text of the talk. It said:
  
  
  quote:
  In modern times such eagerness, commendable in itself, has led to attempts at setting dates for the desired liberation from the suffering and troubles that are the lot of persons throughout the earth. With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting-in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man's existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated.
  
  In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: "If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises." In saying "anyone," The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah's Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date.
• 

  Yerusalyim

  Laurelin,

  Your two issues, the preaching work and love...I'd like to tackle those.

  As far as Love is concerned, try finding how the Society expresses it's love for God's children. Where are the hospitals to care for the poor, where are the food banks to feed the hungry, where are the missionaries dying? I can say that for the Catholic Church, and most of the rest of "christendom" we can easily show you where the hospitals are, where the food bank and charity programs are, and where we have missionaries dying almost every day...Sudan for example...China...and countless other places. Like the bible says if you greet only your brother, what good is that, even tax collectors do as much...Christendom does show love for one another, more importantly it shows it for God's people in food banks and other charities.

  In the same manner, the preaching work you find so successful...2 - 3% growth is NOT successful. The bible does NOT call for door to door preaching in the manner the JW's do it. The Catholic Church grew by almost 16%. We have missionaries in the Appilacians, the Rockies, the Sudan, China...in fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a region without catholic missionaries...the rest of "christendom" is the same...and have a better conversion rate than the JW's.

  Do what you feel is right, pray about it...but two unusual Elders don't change 130 years of lies.

  Yeru
• 

  IT Support

  Hi laurelin,

  First of all, I was pleased that the elders who visited you were apparently so non-judgmental. Who knws, maybe they have been having their own private doubts?

  Sadly, the attitude they displayed seems to be the exception rather than the rule. (I just hope they don't, somewhere down the line, decide you can't be "helped" any further, and then form a judicial committee...)

  It seems the first thing you have to get sorted out in your own mind is whether you can still accept that the Governing Body really is what they claim to be, the "faithful and discreet slave," as this is the basis of their claim to be "God's channel of communication."

  Once I had satisfied myself they were neither "faithful" nor "discreet," everything else fell naturally into place. You might like to try reading Ray Franz's books, Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom.

  Regards,

  Ken
• 

  IT Support

  Celia,

  You are spot on:

  11 It may be that some who have been serving God have planned their lives according to a mistaken view of just what was to happen on a certain date or in a certain year. They may have, for this reason, put off or neglected things that they otherwise would have cared for. But they have missed the point of the Bible's warnings concerning the end of this system of things, thinking that Bible chronology reveals the specific date.

  Isn't it funny how history just keeps repeating itself...

  ?Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so? The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason .? (Watchtower 1926 8/1 232)

  ?Instead of its being considered a ?probability,? they read into it that it was a ?certainty,? and some prepared for their own loved ones with expectancy of their resurrection.? (1975 Yearbook of Jehovah?s Witnesses, page 146)

  Regards,

  Ken
• 

  zev

  laurelin said:

  I did some research on the CDROM and I found a few quotes where they actually admitted they held responsibilty for 1975 so it's not like they deny culparability. (yb80 pg31) They don't seem to deny anything ( having said that a lot of stuff is just not mentioned, such as the star of Alcyone, Russells pyramid etc).

  here's the sited quote: (yb80 pg31)

  Many were the appreciative comments heard on the symposium dealing with "Soundness of Mind in a Mixed-up World." These talks underscored the value of cultivating a realistic view of life; of forming trusted relations with Jehovah God and our brothers; of strengthening our Bible-based hope and the will to live, as well as of allowing for variety and recreation in one?s life. A fine point made in the talk "Choosing the Best Way of Life" was that Jehovah God will save us from stumbling?even as he did David in the case of Nabal?s insolence?but we must do our part. The brothers also appreciated the candor of this same talk, which acknowledged the Society?s responsibility for some of the disappointment a number felt regarding 1975.

  i went back to find out what was said in those "talks", as most talks in conventions are based on wt articles, and future wt articles are based on some of the convention talks.

  here is what i found:

  ***

  w80 3/15 pp. 17-18 Choosing the Best Way of Life ***

  Hold

  to Your Choice!

  4

  If we remain faithful, God will not let us make ruinous mistakes. But sometimes he permits us to be in error so that we may see our need to look always to him and his Word. This strengthens our relationship with him and our endurance while waiting. We learn from our mistakes that it is necessary to be more careful in the future. The desire for the new system of things to take complete charge of the earth has always been very strong in Christians down through the centuries. And because of their own short life-span, they doubtless longed for it to come in their particular lifetime. Those who have tried to keep God?s judgment time "close in mind" have, on more than one occasion throughout history, become overly eager for that day?s arrival, in their own minds trying to rush the arrival of the desired events. (2 Pet. 3:12) In the first century, for example, the apostle Paul found it necessary to write to Christians in Thessalonica in this fashion, as we read at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3: "However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. Let no one seduce you in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction."

  5

  In modern times such eagerness, commendable in itself, has led to attempts at setting dates for the desired liberation from the suffering and troubles that are the lot of persons throughout the earth. With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting?in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man?s existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated.

  6

  In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: "If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises." In saying "anyone," The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah?s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date.

  7

  Nevertheless, there is no reason for us to be shaken in faith in God?s promises. Rather, as a consequence, we are all moved to make a closer examination of the Scriptures regarding this matter of a day of judgment. In doing so, we find that the important thing is not the date. What is important is our keeping ever in mind that there is such a day?and it is getting closer and it will require an accounting on the part of all of us. Peter said that Christians should rightly be "awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah." (2 Pet. 3:12) It is not a certain date ahead; it is day-to-day living on the part of the Christian that is important. He must not live a single day without having in mind that he is under Jehovah?s loving care and direction and must submit himself thereto, keeping also in mind that he must account for his acts.

  8

  Jesus gave the reason why we should maintain such a viewpoint, saying: "For the Son of man is destined to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will recompense each one according to his behavior." (Matt. 16:27) The apostle Paul also pointed out: "We shall all stand before the judgment seat of God . . . So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God." (Rom. 14:10-12) And, "we must all be made manifest before the judgment seat of the Christ, that each one may get his award for the things done through the body, according to the things he has practiced, whether it is good or vile." (2 Cor. 5:10) How long do we have before making such an accounting? Jesus said: "He that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved." (Matt. 24:13) When is "the end"? That end can come either at the end of this system of things or at the individual?s own death before then. How long, then, does each one of us have? No one can calculate the day when he will die. Likewise, Jesus said to his apostles about the time for establishing God?s kingdom: "It does not belong to you to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction." (Acts 1:7) It is impossible for us to figure out the world?s end in advance.

  i don't want to be critical, BUT, i have to be.

  this statement is an insult to everyones intelligence:

  "If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises." In saying "anyone," The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah?s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date."

  The wtbts is THE organization that is and claims to be providing "food" at the proper time.IF this were REAL FOOD, and some people got sick, and ill from contaminated food that was provided by the society, would it be right to BLAME those delivering the food, rather than accepting blame at the source, where the contamination took place in the first place, before it was even loaded on trucks?

  i'm sorry that i have to be this blunt. this is in no way an apology from the wtbts, or in any way accepting blame IMHO.

  all it does is shift the focus from the REAL culprits, to people who work for free for them.
• 

  Celia

  Here is the "official" statement from Brooklyn concerning the "wrong expectations" about 1975 --- WT March 15, 1980 --- They waited 5 years to say anything about the failure of their "prophecy" . . .

  5 In modern times such eagerness, commendable in itself, has led to attempts at setting dates for the desired liberation from the suffering and troubles that are the lot of persons throughout the earth. With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting-in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man's existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated.

  6 In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: "If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises." In saying "anyone," The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah's Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date.

  7 Nevertheless, there is no reason for us to be shaken in faith in God's promises. Rather, as a consequence, we are all moved to make a closer examination of the Scriptures regarding this matter of a day of judgment. In doing so, we find that the important thing is not the date. What is important is our keeping ever in mind that there is such a day-and it is getting closer and it will require an accounting on the part of all of us. Peter said that Christians should rightly be "awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah." (2 Pet. 3:12) It is not a certain date ahead; it is day-to-day living on the part of the Christian that is important. He must not live a single day without having in mind that he is under Jehovah's loving care and direction and must submit himself thereto, keeping also in mind that he must account for his acts.

  8 Jesus gave the reason why we should maintain such a viewpoint, saying: "For the Son of man is destined to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will recompense each one according to his behavior." (Matt. 16:27) The apostle Paul also pointed out: "We shall all stand before the judgment seat of God . . . So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God." (Rom. 14:10-12) And, "we must all be made manifest before the judgment seat of the Christ, that each one may get his award for the things done through the body, according to the things he has practiced, whether it is good or vile." (2 Cor. 5:10) How long do we have before making such an accounting? Jesus said: "He that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved." (Matt. 24:13) When is "the end"? That end can come either at the end of this system of things or at the individual's own death before then. How long, then, does each one of us have? No one can calculate the day when he will die. Likewise, Jesus said to his apostles about the time for establishing God's kingdom: "It does not belong to you to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction." (Acts 1:7) It is impossible for us to figure out the world's end in advance.