Visit From Elders

by laurelin 66 Replies latest jw experiences

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    Where I feel the JW's are unique is that they will not go to war against each other or indeed anyone else. You'll get a catholic killing a catholic and there are some horrendous things done in Ethnic Cleansing' where one religion tries to stamp out another but you never get one JW try to kill another.

    I'm sorry, but I have a real problem with the thought that some imagine that that is some special sort of "love". How do you figure? You've just stated that ethnic cleansing goes on, right? And how is ethnic cleansing stopped? With war, that's how. Is it loving to sit by and let ethnic cleansing happen? It isn't just catholics you know. Hell, it's very seldom Catholics. Would it be loving to sit by and let your family, your fellow man, be run from their land, perhaps raped, killed, etc... simply because you have a group of mean-spirited old Auto/theocrats in Brooklyn you are committed to answering to?

    Never imagine it so.

    JW's don't refuse military service because they are more loving people than Catholics, they refuse military service because they believe that there is a biblical prohibition against it (as told to them by the GB). There is no such thing, but even if you can make a tenuous case that there is, you certainly can't make the case that it is based on "love".

    Why, pray tell, do you reduce it to "a catholic killing a catholic"? I mean, sure, that has happened, but that is not generally the gist of war. Sure, a JW may never kill another JW in a war, but guess what, a JW won't ever save a JW from the atrocities of a war either.

    JW's didn't kill anyone in WWII, but they sure are better off (read: in existance) because some people did.

    To address your comment on ethnic/religious cleansing, JW's could have a policy or doctrine of abstaining from any sort of ethnic or religious "cleansing" type wars. They don't, in fact they believe, and this is in writing, that God did favor one ethnicity over all others, and they further believe that God favors one religion over all others. They instead have a doctrine that doesn't allow them to go to war at all, no matter how just the war. That policy is based not on love, but rather on the concept of "being no part of the world".

    Exactly where a christian should draw the lines in his or her attempt to "be no part of the world", is fodder for another discussion altogether, but it's worth asking if JW policy in that regards makes a damn bit of sense? Are taxes Ceasars only due? Doesn't "Ceasar" run/exist by virtue of community participation in most cases? One more area where the governing body should have just shut the hell up, and let individual conciences work like..... well... individual conciences.

    It's certainly not as if JW's are revolted by the concept of killing to solve problems. That is the very core of their interpretation of the scriptures on Armageddon (I stress "their interpretation", because it isn't as if the Bible is clear and plain on just what "armageddon" really even is. It's simply the leaders and the followers of JW doctrine's choice to believe it means wiping out most of mankind; in reality the one mention of "har-maggedon" in the bible, is tucked into a group of highly symbolic verses.).

  • Mulan
    Mulan
    Where I feel the JW's are unique is that they will not go to war against each other or indeed anyone else.

    They aren't the only ones who don't go to war. They just tell you they are, just like they say they are the only ones who don't teach the Trinity, Hellfire, immortality of the soul, etc. All not true. There are others...............just not big religions.

  • Bryan
    Bryan
    I asked them outright that was there anything I could say to them that would get me marked or disfellowshipped for being apostate and they replied no.

    Holy Cow!

    I too must say, this sounds more like "let's say no and she'll open up".! If you asked the question,

    was there anything I could say to them that would get me marked or disfellowshipped for being apostate

    You were effectively telling them, I'm not going to tell you everything, for fear of punishment. What did you expect them to say? "Yes, if you are honest with us we will DF you"?

    Your meating sounds bizzar to me, I'm sorry but, the last thing they want is someone with questions like your's to start talking to other dubs. People like us who demand real answers and to speak openly are a cancer to a KH, a cancer of truth that the borg cannot afford among it's cash cows.

    Lovingly,

    Bryan

  • boa
    boa

    laurelin, don't let all these damn apostates fool you, there just want you to leave God's One True Organization On Earth and follow after them, errr, sorry 'bout that, the feb 15/04 wt was taking over my brain.

    Seriously though, I'm sure the bros who visited you were trying to help and be reasonable but I agree with some of the others here that there will be a very strict limit to how far they will let your thinking stray. Likely the warning flags are already well in place for them about you imo. I'm surprised any elder would dare say they don' t believe or agree with something from the wts since that alone by their own standard handed down from the org, is apostacy against the org - even thinking privately its not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. - italics and thought mine as I remember it from Crisis of Conscience.

    (Not sure what your 'Whats the time brothers?" point was about, maybe someone can 'enlighten' me cuz its getting brighter all the time doncha know, when it isn't blinking.)

    It sounds like your definitely at some crossroads despite your last post saying your at a decsion imo, and all I can add is that for the ramifications of you 'leaving' and/or going against what you used to believe was your salvation into a new system of things, one should be really sure for as solid reasons as possible.

    For me, I reached many conclusions about problems with the org on my own, and then arrived here and promptly had those conclusions and more coalesce into breaking with the borg, though not officially as I have a job to do with those of my family still in. However, I was going to say, that for me Crisis of Conscience, Ray's other book In Search of Christian Freedom, and especially Carl Olaf Jonsson's book Gentile Times Reconsidered have been a 'Godsend'. For me, if 607 is hogwash (what gentile times book is all about), then quite simply they are liars and no matter how much 'good' they do for people, no matter how many 'nice' elders exist, it simply is not the 'true' religion whatever that is, and i don't want a part in it.

    Of course, my message, is decide for yourself after careful consideration, meditation, research, discussion with husband, and even prayer if you still believe in Jehovah and seek his help to worship in spirit and truth.

    boa

    this post is very much just my own opinion, so trash it if you don't agree, no problem by me

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    What do you want from a religion? Remember, the greatest commandments? Love God and love your neighbor.

    Christian religions SHOULD serve two purposes: One, they draw followers to spiritual discussions for self-improvement (love of God). Two, they provide an organized outlet for love of neighbor (charity, etc.)

    Wouldn't it be more satisfying to donate your time to a local charity, rather than wasting it going door to door recruiting members based on a highly suspicious interpretation of Daniel and Matthew?

    You already know why you left the organization. Why would you go back? Even if you had the luck of meeting two liberal elders, chances are they'll be gone soon and YOU'LL be stuck in a "shepherd's pie." This borg is not kind to dissenting elders. Why should you be running around scared of what you think?

    There is no spiritual feeding going on, either. It's just threats and empty promises, churned up into an unappetizing pap and forced down your throat three times a week.

    CZAR

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    laurelin,

    : I replied that the brother at our group study the other week stated catagorically that everyone who has been witnesssed to and rejects it will die. He replied that he has seen nothing in the watchtower to back that up and more importantly he has seen nothing in the bible to back that up.

    He was certainly right in the second instance!

    Show him this. It is as explicit as can be about what the WTS teaches will happen at Armageddon, and the Society has not repudiated it since it was written:

    *** w58 10/15 614-5 What Will Armageddon Mean for You? ***

    As for humans upon earth, on the side of Jehovah will be all those fully dedicated to him and who are faithfully following Jesus Christ; compared with earth's billions these are indeed few. They are the few that walk the narrow way or cramped road that leads to life. These will not share in the fighting but will merely sing God's praises.-2 Chron. 20:20, 21; 2 Cor. 10:4, 5; Matt. 7:13, 14.

    On Satan's side will be all the rest of mankind, more than 99.9 percent, even as we read: "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." That includes all the governments of the world together with their supporters, the commercial, religious and social institutions. Even the professedly Christian organizations? Yes, because all such that are friends of the world are making themselves enemies of God.-1 John 5:19; Jas. 4:4.

    Yes, today the earth is filled with wickedness, much innocent blood has been and is being shed, both in war and in peace. Godless men are persecuting Jehovah's servants and ruining the earth. Jehovah will express "indignation against all the nations" and "against all the inhabitants of the earth," because "there is nought but swearing and breaking faith, and killing, and stealing, and committing adultery." At Armageddon Jehovah "will cause justice to be done" speedily to "his chosen ones who cry aloud to him" because of being persecuted. At that time he will also "bring to ruin those ruining the earth."-Isa. 34:2; Jer. 25:30; Hos. 4:2, AS; Luke 18:8, 7; Rev. 11:18.

    Farkel

  • Cheetos
    Cheetos

    If those brothers said such things to you then it sounds like to me they should be in on this web site to contribute. I have found that being a Jehovah's Witness for the most part is habit, people go to the meetings not because they really want to, but because of mind control or habbit. Looking back over many years of being a Jehovah's Witness I really honestly didn't swallowed all that crap, some of it but not all of it. Page 1. Good day.

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    *** You Can live Forever (1982, 1990) p.255 ***

    Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways, that you can follow to gain life in God's new system. There is only one. There was just one ark that survived the Flood, not a number of boats. And there will be only one organization ? God's visible organization ? that will survive the fast-approaching "great tribulation." It is simply not true that all religions lead to the same goal? You must be part of Jehovah's organization, doing God's will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting life?

    Thanks to http://quotes.watchtower.ca/exclusivity.htm

  • Nocturne
    Nocturne

    From the looks of it, sounds like your elders are pretty understanding and liberal, like many others here have said. Now, you said:

    I also asked about everyone dying that wasn't a baptised witness or their children and they both said that they didn't believe that. One of them quoted the scripture that states "A great crowd of people no man will be able to number" and said that if it were just witnesses then it would be a number easily counted. I said how I find it hard to accept that a person who has spent their entire lives helping other people (eg Red Cross workers in other countries) and sees things that make them doubt God exsists or cares would be killed at Armeggedon just because they failed to listen to the Witnesses.
    And he agreed and said that Jehovah knows everyone's heart and will judge on that alone. I replied that the brother at our group study the other week stated catagorically that everyone who has been witnesssed to and rejects it will die

    The elder at your book study might have gotten the idea from this:

    *** You Can live Forever (1982, 1990) p.255 ***

    Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways, that you can follow to gain life in God's new system. There is only one. There was just one ark that survived the Flood, not a number of boats. And there will be only one organization ? God's visible organization ? that will survive the fast-approaching "great tribulation." It is simply not true that all religions lead to the same goal? You must be part of Jehovah's organization, doing God's will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting life?

    and,

    *** Watchtower 1981 December 1 p.27 The Path of the Righteous Does Keep Getting Brighter ***

    Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his "faithful and discreet slave," made up of spirit-anointed ones ? Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.

    So here you go, it's clearly stated here that you must be part of God's Organization to be saved at Armeggedon. Interesting enough, one of the things my mom said to pressure me into getting baptized is that if you're old enough to make decisions, and that if you don't take position for God's kingdom, and get baptized, I would be destroyed if Armaguedon. Now she must have gotten that idea somewhere wouldn't she? Anyways, they flip flop so much it's hard to keep up. For example:

    *** Official Jehovah's Witnesses Media Relations Web Site***

    http://www.jw-media.org/beliefs/beliefsfaq.htm

    Collected on March 18, 2001

    Do you believe that you are the only ones who will be saved?

    No. Many millions who have lived in centuries past and who were not Jehovah's Witnesses will come back in a resurrection and have an opportunity for life. Many now living may yet take a stand for truth and righteousness before God's time of judgment, and they will gain salvation. Moreover, Jesus said that we should not be judging one another. Humans look at the outward appearance; God looks at the heart. He sees accurately and judges mercifully. God has committed judgment into Jesus' hands, not ours. ?Matthew 7:1-5; John 5:22, 27.

    Of course, this is a public relations website, and it wouldn't be good business if they said straight out that anyone not a JW will die at Armagueddon. Btw, I don't know if I missed it in your post, but what did they elders say about the UN/NGO thing?

    Nocturne.

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere
    Do you believe that you are the only ones who will be saved?

    No. Many millions who have lived in centuries past and who were not Jehovah's Witnesses will come back in a resurrection and have an opportunity for life. Many now living may yet take a stand for truth and righteousness before God's time of judgment, and they will gain salvation. Moreover, Jesus said that we should not be judging one another. Humans look at the outward appearance; God looks at the heart. He sees accurately and judges mercifully. God has committed judgment into Jesus' hands, not ours. ?Matthew 7:1-5; John 5:22, 27.

    Actually they did not lie here... they just couched their words very carefully...... and asked a loaded question. They should have asked: "Do you believe that you are the only ones who will survive Armageddon?"

    WT May 1st 2002
    ?Jehovah Hates The Course of Treachery?
    10. Are we personally alert, so that no unrighteousness is found on our lips? For example, can our family members really trust what we say? Can our spiritual brothers and sisters in the congregation do the same? It would be easy to develop the habit of couching one?s words in terms that are technically accurate but misleading.

    You'll notice that "Spiritual Warfare" is still in effect. They said that you don't want to "develop the habit of couching one?s words in terms that are technically accurate but misleading" with Spiritual Brothers and Sisters.... it conveniently left out non-JWs.

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