Tbo, do you still attend meetings?
A Diatribe - Feel Free To Vent With Me
No.. and I haven't for ..almost 5 years now. My family is split.. my mother and little sister are still very active. But my other brothers and sisters are all living peaceful happy lives. My mother is forced to deal with the situation. However, ex friends are not so understanding. Which... I deal with everyday.. and everyday I believe it makes me a stronger person. I fight harder to become who I am and not who they want me to be.
From a position of freedom, Tbo, it is easier to be forgiving. Even a rant as strong as this one (which I can relate to right now) can lead to forgiveness later. Even though he was a "man after God's own heart", David had his days (i.e. Psalm 7).
It is so sad... such a beautiful writer.. such talent.. so filled with hatred. And for who? for what? Why hate Jehovah's Witnesses? any more so than any other religion?
Good question which you answer;
My mother is forced to deal with the situation. However, ex friends are not so understanding
... I might take what you say the wrong way, but you seem to be putting the JW's in a 'just like other' catagory they do not belong in.
Check the resource here;
... the more critera an organisation (I say that as it can include commercial entities too) conform to, and the extent they conform to each criteria allow one to distinguish between a normal belief structure and a high control belief structure.
what about the coach who called the wrong play b/c he thought he knew what was best for the team and then they lost?
Bad and almost offensive comparison; so, calling a play badly is the same as an organisation fobidding certain forms of medical treatment (vacinations, transplants, blood) and then, basically on a whim (as vacinations and transplants are still the same) deciding some are now okay and some are still not when those that are still not okay are not okay on extremely vauge grounds when viewed with more than grade-level science (JW's can have Factor 8 which is 100% blood, but not blood plasma which is 99% saline)? Add in the fact that some one who disagrees with the ruling and has a transfusion will be disfellowshipped and outcast. Bad example; I haven't seen many coaches forbid the entire school and the players family from contacting a player who ignored a play.
You ARE right that we need to avoid being bitter. We need to be happy succesful people - for OURSELVES, not just to prove THEM wrong. But to try and make out the JW's are just like such and such when they are demonstrably not is kidding yourself.
All the best.
My only comment was that as children we are taught things by our teachers, parents, and as Jehovah's Witnesses .. our elders, etc. We take what they say as gospel. Most of the direction we receive is b/c people are teaching us what THEY think is best...whether or not it is. I don't hate the people. They can only teach me for a while.. then I make my own decisions.. it is this thing called Free Will..
Do I believe that the example with the coach and JW's are the exact same? No, you missed my point. I was trying to compare where you steer your hatred to... The coach steered the team wrong... In his opinion JW's are tyring to steer him wrong... Do you hate the coach who steered you wrong? Why hate JW's who steered you wrong? Guess what? in the end.. they can't .. you make the decisions yourself.
I don't think that the discussion around abstaining from blood is any differnt than having a conversation regarding abortion, homosexuality or any other topic that is widely debated. I was raised a Jehovah's Witness.. and understand that EVERY religion has something that people find offensive. Have you ever been to a Holy Roller Church? I am not a big believer in the "speaking of tongues"... what about "dont' use contraception" .. God will control what happens......how about a little snake handling in the name of faith and God? I dare say the Catholic religion with their open acceptance of gays and their support of WWI/II makes me want to sign up......I do not want to debate this with anyone.. as my point is that those are beliefs of REAL religions. My point is how are they any different?
Anyway.. my remark was made to let the gentleman know that hatred doesn't do anything but breed more hatred. Every salesman, evangelist, etc. is out to screw with your head if you let them. So the "journey of self discovery" and the determination to stand on your own to feet and find your own way is more important.
Well, I don't really know how to begin. I don't owe anyone an explaination for what it is that I write but I appreciate the fact that you actually read what I wrote, you feel it was well-written, you decided to compliment me on it, and offer your criticism and insight. It beats the hell out people who will slam what you write without reading it first. You must understand, I am just now coming to grips with the fact that what happened to me (raised in Jw's, getting df'd, losing my family, waking from the Matrix, etc.) is just now really sinking in. I was not aware I was in a cult. I was not aware that these things are not that very far removed from the worlds of Jim Jones, David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite and others. I have had alot of trouble calling a spade a spade and the JW's, I now see, are a cult. I am a "cult survivor." Those people that pitied me for not being able to celbrate holidays, I used to pity them. I used to think I was an enlightened one and they were misguided. In retrospect, they may not have known the truth anymore than I did, and realizing that the bottom had fallen out of a belief system that I held for 20+ years is daunting. I used the word diatribe, admittedly, without knowing it's exact definition. But I looked it up and it fits well with what I was feeling. Websters defines it : "A bitter and abusive criticism or denunciation." Denunciation, censure, blame, accusation. These are highly negative feelings, and in the case of JW's , blame is not very satisfying. As was said somewhere on this site, the organization rolls on without you. And that would be ok, if not for the fact that there are some great people that I care about still being dragged along under the wheels. These people, those ones with a certain intelligence that for some reason remain blinded by the doctrine, they grease the wheels of what I called the "facism machine." I have 2 brothers and a sister that are among these people. It pains me to see the potential my life posseses now, free from mind control, that would also be available to them provided they wake up. Of course, in the end, if that is their faith and it works for them, who am I to say anything? But that is what is so god-pounding frustrating about it all. The idea that there is nothing you can do. I struggle with feelings of innadequacy and unworthiness alot. I've gotten better at dealing with it. But it still comes up pretty often and most recently when I think of things like this. I am an idealist by nature, if you can believe that. And I asked a friend of mine one time which would she rather have? A man who uses the system that's in place to his advantage or one who is out to change the system? How would you answer that? I am the type that would try to change the system. And I know that in the end my little words on here, this little diatribe may not mean much, but for those of us who find it a little more difficult to "cut our losses" and walk away, what will it take to change the system? Can one person do it? Facts and figures and testimony of abuse both physical and mental are one thing, but alot of times they sound almost clinical. What about some fire? What about some emotion? To me, emotion is what seperates us from animals and all these inanimate things that stand by and watch life happen around them. Emotion is the difference between existence and living. I appreciate you not wanting to dwell on negative things, and if it truly pains you to see someone you may consider talented "waste" their gift with words of hatred then perhaps you should not read my posts. I would prefer it not be that way because I love to hear other people's input. Why else would I be posting here? The fact is, as I said before, if my words can help someone or spur them to make a decision they were riding the fence on, that's an incredible feeling. I also like to show people that you don't have to be mindless when you denounce. It can be done with some tact (sorry for using the S words in my original posts.) I don't know, I guess I just continue to welcome your input even if it doesn't agree with mine.
I don't think that the discussion around abstaining from blood is any differnt than having a conversation regarding abortion, homosexuality or any other topic that is widely debated.
Sorry, YOU miss the point. How is it possible to have a debate about blood transfusion in the JW's?
There is no possibility for dissent. Dissent is forbidden, and those who dissent are made outcasts. Other (non-family) JW's that associate with them risk being made outcast to. How long do you think you would be allowed to remain a JW if you went round saying blood transfusions were okay?
Are you going to tell that's normal, or actually read the material I provided? Don't get me wrong; for a few years I said things like "JW's are no worse than any other religion".
Then I did some research. I suggest you do the same.
Tbo, Hating and venting are two different things. We vent so we don't have to hate. Sorry you were confused. GaryB
I guess I can only start by saying that I sent a message to Zerokool29 that I suppose I should've just posted... to say that I wrote impulsively .. I loved the power of his message.. I immediately knew it was very well written.. was just saddened in general by hatred. I wrote that I realized that the hatred may have fed his creations.. and if that was the case then continue to let drives you/steer you.. steer you.. and the positive things that you could write I am sure would be amazing.
As far as the other comments..
Abaddon and others.. I guess the root of the difference is that I don't believe that JW's are a cult.. I do believe that they are misguided and I have researched religion.. I have been to the Holy Roller Church that I wrote about.. I have been frightened by people who speak in tongues.. and have gone to very nice churches where you walk in and they ask for your money.. all that aside...and I guess to answer your other question regarding blood.. my note is that I don't want to be a JW...so I wouldn't profess to thinking that i was a true JW unless I agreed with their beliefs on blood.... so I wouldn't profess to be one without believing what they believe.. same as my respect for ANYONE's religion.. I will not profess to be one unless I fully understand... hence I was never baptized.. and never went through dealing with disfellowshipment.. I did however deal with friends that were.. dealth with friends that committed suicide.. dealt with friends that were "the model pioneers" that were having premarital sex and getting drunk.. etc.. not to go on.. but I have and actually still am taking classes and studying... my curiousity brought me to this site... not b/c I hate or feel like I need to vent really.. was just curious as to how other people research religions and what they think about structure and creation and life in general.
Garybuss... maybe you are right on the nose.. :) I worry when people vent anger... not that venting isn't good b/c it is .. you feel much better after talking about things... but I have seen what happens when people are filled with so much hatred towards something that it eats them up until that is all they think about and they dont' realize that there is ANY other way. < I should've been more clear.. not presuming that he was the same as my friend and that he couldn't manage his anger...>
Zerokool29- I didn't mean to criticize your writing .. my intent was to compliment.. I apologize that my compliment and comments got lost in what was taken as just criticizm.. anyway.. I read alot and go to school and work for a major corporation.. I see writings all the time.. I even have friends that write for publication and have never been overly impressed with any of them. Your writing.. driven by whatever it was driven by was very very good... keep it up. ;) I would hate to see (read) you bound. <that is just a joke..ha ha? ;))
Zero [or Aaron, that?s you, right?], that was a brilliant poem.
And your summarization afterward is right where I was as well.
I still slide back into that anger once in a while.
And the poem accurately describes where I was about 8 months ago in my life.
The frustration, the pain, the feeling of waking up from the Matrix.
?Oh my god, I was in a cult a good part of my life!?
?I was preaching to people, shunning people, not going to college, not observing holidays with my relatives; and I was wrong about everything!?
That?s when I broke down in tears sobbing until I was out of breath and my eyes were all puffed up.
It was about 6 months after that episode when I finally DA?d myself from the dreadful cult, leaving my wife and brother behind in it to escape on their own.
They are on their own, not because I will not help, but because you can?t free a mind that doesn?t want to be saved.
It?s infuriating for a good part of my life to wonder; ?How come EVERYONE else can?t see the truth about the Truth??
And now I wonder just the opposite; ?How come my loved ones and friends can?t see the truth about the Troof??
One of the sentences in your summary struck me is when you stated:
I am sick of all the hate.
I was as well.
I realized that I wasn?t a hateful person, and that carrying the hate around for everyone who isn?t a JW was killing me. Plus, I had friends who were DF?d over the years, but I couldn?t bring myself to hate them for falling into tough times. And I was sick of others talking bad about my friends who were DF?d.
You can read one of my earlier posts here to the board that reported myself attending a Sunday meeting during my Awake!ening period at the bottom of this post. I think that it touches on some of the feelings you described in your poem. It stirs up weird feelings inside of me just reading it now many months later.
Zero, hope to see more of you here on the board, as I relate closely to the feelings you describe.
PM me if you like if you want to talk. I?m in the Milwaukee, WI area.
And now TBO,
You are very correct in saying that one should not carry hate around as it will stifle and hinder ones happiness in life. It truly is counterproductive to a happy and satisfying life, and I truly appreciate you pointing that out as it is something that many people never learn in life.
But that is where we digress.
It is my hope that you reanalyze your remarks and position, because I think that you may not be fully educated about ALL that is involved here.
Yes, you were raised in the cult, and you have that perspective.
But I ask you to go back and read Zero?s original poem?.
?Where did he EVER say that he hated the JW?s??
To use a phrase from the bOrg, he was not expressing anger?
?he was expressing ?Righteous Indignation?
He is rightly upset at what goes on in the WTS.
And the venom that you see does not appear to be the core person of whom Zero is, but rather, it is the poison that needs to be released so that he can heal.
And here is where I invite you to do more research if you can find the time:
The seven stages of loss.
Shock A numbing paralysis when doubting that we have the resources to handle the change, so loss seems inevitable. This produces fear. Paralysing fear may appear as a free-floating anxiety about life.
Denial The reaction , "If I ignore this it will go away." Denial may be used creatively for a while when we are too busy to handle the new but if we shelve loss reactions for too long the avoidance takes up mental energy and they begin to make us difficult to live with or prickly, without knowing why.
Anger The first reaction when we truly recognise risk of loss is the drive to go out into the world and prevent loss . Anger in itself is thus a creative emotion. We all need a little anger to keep our environments organised for healthy living. But we may get problems handling it if we cannot see how to turn our anger to good effect, or once the loss has occurred. Some repress it so that it comes out as depression, some direct it inappropriately at others, some direct it at the person most loved or trusted simply to get it out.
Guilt Guilt is the price we pay for loving - an inevitable result of being bonded and committed. It is the step of questioning , (a) what we could have done to avoid the loss? and (b) what we might have done to have caused it? The drive to ask is irrational. This stage is important to survival as a way we learn. It drives us to reason. Unfortunately these questions come with that horrible sense of wrongdoing, and it is this which can send people on guilt-trips. To focus on the questions might help. The answers are usually simple, but because we do not like the questions we often bounce back to anger instead. The whirlpool of anger and guilt is a common trap in loss reactions.
Bargaining We bargain when our yearning or longing makes us try to restore the loss . When each gambit to do so fails there is another mini-loss reaction with anger and guilt (which can make bargaining a very complicated and prolonged stage for some losses), plus a growing sense of our powerlessness.
Depression The true depression of loss is when we recognise our powerlessness over loss. Life becomes meaningless, valueless, hopeless, and we may lose our motivation and sense of worth.
Acceptance We come to true acceptance of loss when we realise that we are indeed powerless over that particular loss, but that in other areas of life we are still creative and valued . It is a rich, mature state. Sadness over the loss remains, but this is restrained by a wider joy at reconciliation to life. The problem is that many people think they have accepted losses when they are really denying them. We can recognise the difference by what happens when the loss is remembered. In denial, instead of sadness, there will be a recurrence of the harder loss reaction emotions of shock, anger, guilt, longing or depression.
My Sunday meeting during my Awake!ening
Sunday morning. I wake up to her leaving for the meeting. Damn! I overslept! I wanted to make a good showing at the KH for the elders. I tell her to save me a seat.
I get to the KH and I find that the WT study has already started. After sitting there for a minute I realize that although the entire article is about Revelation and the letters to the seven congregations. But the study is concentrating on condemning apostasy. Actually, it is encouraging outright hatred for anyone labeled as an apostate by the WTS.
Just great! I can feel the heat from the flames of hatred as I sit at my wife?s side.
?Are you getting any of this, you Jehovah hating apostate??
As I get settled in, I see that they are starting to consider paragraph #6. The paragraph is another example of sifting the facts by the WTS. There is a sentence half way through that says, paraphrased, that we most oppose apostates.
The WTS then cites 2 Cor 11:12-15, 26.
The question is now asked for the paragraph. Let the ?Two-minutes Hate? begin.
Well everyone falls in line. The word ?hate? is freely thrown around. We must oppose apostates and hate what is bad. No one notices that 2 Cor was taken completely out of context. While yes, it says this:
?13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. ?
in the same chapter Paul also admonished the Corinthians to do this:
*** Rbi8 2 Corinthians 11:19-20 *** 19 For YOU gladly put up with the unreasonable persons, seeing YOU are reasonable. 20 In fact, YOU put up with whoever enslaves YOU , whoever devours [what YOU have], whoever grabs [what YOU have], whoever exalts himself over [ YOU ], whoever strikes YOU in the face.
Humm, is appears that we are supposed to endure and put up with such men. Even in vs. 26 Paul is citing all of the things that he has endured, including as vs. 26 says, ?
*** Rbi8 2 Corinthians 11:26 *** in journeys often, in dangers from rivers, in dangers from highwaymen, in dangers from [my own] race, in dangers from the nations, in dangers in the city, in dangers in the wilderness, in dangers at sea, in dangers among FALSE BROTHERS,
But of course none of this is noticed by the R&F. I am amazed at how people can be using the Bible and yet be so blind. I am saddened that I was once like this too. No wonder why I felt miserable so many times in my life.
The hate continues in the same paragraph. The elder who I have been talking to, elder ?A?, comments on *** Rbi8 2 John 10 ***
10 If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him.
?So we see, we must oppose such ones and remove them from the congregation to protect the flock,? Elder ?A? declares. That?s great news. Glad to see that there?s no biased mindset here.
And actually, the scripture says ?home? not congregation. Again, no one notices.
Now the highlight is the end of the WatchTower. The congregation is being led by the WT conductor through the review questions. And the final question I believe asks, to paraphrase, ?How are we to view apostates??
Well this is so easy our conductor does a little game that I am sure others have seen done at their congregation also. He asks for all the children to answer at once.
And the answer is? Well, the answer that the young children are to repeat is, ?HATE?.
?hate? , the young mouths murmur.
The conductor doesn?t care for the level of the response he receives the first time around. So he asks the question again. Parents are starting to coach their children to say the desired answer, ?Hate?.
?Hate?, the little ones say with growing confidence.
The response is better, but still, it?s just not good enough.
?I know you can do better than that!?
And now, in one resounding, unified accord we get the real message of the WTS from the mouth of babes:
My heart sank.
The WTS breeds hate, and I was an accomplice to this for over 15 years.
Man I hope that the WTS was right about one thing; please don?t let there be a fiery hell of eternal torment.
Because for the first time in my life, I am truly in fear of it.