by psyco 208 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
"So you already have a new chronology? Just need to lose 20 years somewhere I suppose"
Um, It is not new chronology. That is the original chronology. It is Nelson Barbour that added the 20 years because he thought that 587 would make it a 50 year desolation. But he did not understand that the 70 years ran from when Daniel was taken (that's how Daniel knew when they would end, because he knew when they began) not when Jerusalem was destroyed.
"Leading scholars including biblical historians, archaeologists, chronologists etc endorse 586 BCE and not 587 BCE."
Does it matter? It has always been stated that Jerusalem was destroyed 586/587 because one date can't be pointed to.
"WT scholars have traditionally provided simple and compelling evidence based on the recognition of the 70 years of Jewish Exile and the fact that Judah was desolate for 70 years proved beyond doubt that the only possible date for the Fall of Jerusalem was 607 BCE."
There are no WT scholars. It is Nelson Barbour that moved the destruction 20 years back because he thought the 70 years was from the destruction, when it was not.
What is so difficult about this? Nathan told David that his offspring would rule on Jehovah's throne forever, leading to Jesus on the throne. Jesus never became king on the throne so that tells us that something must have happened to prevent the prophesy from failing. This is why those who do not believe Dan 4 means anything bigger than to Babylon are wrong because if it is not real, it is calling Nathan false.
Daniel was told that the kingdom was put on pause for 7 times or 2520 years in the tree dream. This is not a JW interpretation or even a Russell thing. That interpretation preceded them.
That kingdom was put on pause when the kings in the line of David lost their sovereignty. It was not about the destruction of Jerusalem. Nathan didn't say the destruction of Jerusalem was anything. People don't think about it was Nathan's prophecy that started it all, because they are too focused on what the Watchtowers have said over the years because they were focusing on those men.
2 Chron 36:3 ", the king of Egypt deposed him in Jerusalem and fined the land 100 silver talents and a gold talent. Furthermore, the king of Egypt made Je·hoʹa·haz’ brother E·liʹa·kim king over Judah". Sounds like they lost their sovereignty.
2 Kings 24:2 "Then Jehovah began to send against him marauder bands of Chal·deʹans, Syrians, Moʹab·ites, and Amʹmon·ites. He kept sending them against Judah to destroy it. 3 Surely it was by the order of Jehovah that this happened to Judah,". Think about it, if the kings were still sitting on Jehovah's Throne, why would Jehovah send enemies against his own king on his thrown.
Dan 1:1 "In the third year of the kingship of King Je·hoiʹa·kima of Judah, King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it" That is when Daniel was taken to Babylon. Daniel 9:2 " in the first year of his (Darius) reign I, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of years mentioned in the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet to fulfill the desolation of Jerusalem, namely, 70 years". Daniel knew the end of the 70 because he knew the beginning of it because he was there.
If Jerusalem was destroyed in 587, Zedekiah reigned for 11 years ending in 587 then so he started 598, Jehoiachin was for 3 months, and before him, Jehoiakim was king for 11 years which would be around 609-610. The 3rd year according to Daniel would be around 607. 607 - 70 = 537. 607 - 2520 = 1914 but the pause of the kingdom could have started at the beginning of Jehoiakim in 610 as 2 Chron 36:3 says. 610-2520 years = 1911. I say around because we don't need to be like Russell declaring Oct 1, 1914 as special. We don't need exact dates. The war in heaven occurred and satan was cast out. That sounds like a good time to start WWI. While in the past QfR said the war's starting in August before October, was the devil's preparing; but I think that is rationalizing. It could have been a year or 2 before.
It was Nelson Barbour in 1881 that added the 20 years because he thought 587 would lead to a 50 year desolation. But he, like so many others like Carl Oloff Jonsson, can't see the forest because they are looking too closely at the trees. They keep thinking of destruction of Jerusalem when that didn't have the meaning.
MeanMrMustard
No. The order Jerimiah lists the nations doesn't imply a conquering order. It's just an enumeration of the nations "round about" that will serve the king of Babylon.
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Jeremiah sets out a list of nations starting with Judah to experience Jehovah's judgement whether it is of a conquering order or otherwise is not made plain in the prophecy for it begins with Judah and then successively lists and describes the fate of each nation.
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If that list described a conquering order, starting in verse 17, it means you have Judah conquered before Assyria. How is this supposed to have transpired? Do the armies of Babylon pour out, passing through Asssyria, Persia, without conflict, only to arrive at the nations surrounding Judah, ignoring them as well, but allowed to pass through without resistance? What did Neb say to these nations? "Nevermind the massive army I'm moving through your lands. Just passing through. I'm really after this small state on the coast. But I might attack on my way back"?
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The prophecy is simply one of succession for some nations may have received their judgement simultaneously for the account does not provide Neb's military strategy or battle plans.
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Good lord. This is utter craziness. The list of nations is just a list of nations. Verse 29 is translated as "beginning to", not "first".
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The words 'first', 'beginning to', 'starting off' all can refer to a moment or time and priority of movement thus Jehovah's judgment against the nations began with Judah first.
scholar JW
Rattigan350
"So you already have a new chronology? Just need to lose 20 years somewhere I suppose"
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It is not a 'new chronology' but an old traditional chronology. The 20 years only occurs when one compares a scheme to another scheme of chronology.
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Um, It is not new chronology. That is the original chronology. It is Nelson Barbour that added the 20 years because he thought that 587 would make it a 50 year desolation. But he did not understand that the 70 years ran from when Daniel was taken (that's how Daniel knew when they would end, because he knew when they began) not when Jerusalem was destroyed.
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Whatever the case Russell corrected Barbour's scheme constructing a chronology more faithful to the Bible. The view that the 70 years began with Daniel's deportation or exile was false as Russell realized that the 70 years was a period whence the Land was to be desolate hence it could only have begun 10 years later.
scholar JW
Rattigan350
Does it matter? It has always been stated that Jerusalem was destroyed 586/587 because one date can't be pointed to.
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It certainly does matter for Chronology as science seeks to establish accurate dates based on accurate information or provide a scheme of chronology that is faithful to all of the data. WT critics are dogmatic in their contention that 607 BCE is wrong so they make that claim definitive, a counterclaim to this would be that such critics provide a definitive date or solution and if this cannot be done then they should cease their dogmatism until the matter is resolved definitively.
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There are no WT scholars. It is Nelson Barbour that moved the destruction 20 years back because he thought the 70 years was from the destruction, when it was not.
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What about the 'celebrated' WT scholars? WT Chronology is based not on Barbour but Charles Russell and his associates and proved that the 70,years began with the desolation of Judah.
scholar JW
What about the 'celebrated' WT scholars? WT Chronology is based not on Barbour but Charles Russell and his associates
If you want to open the embarrassing can of worms that CTR created, which have over the years been systematically dropped as teachings by WT, then you need the bumps on your head felt.
Which incidentally was some other quackery CTR believed in.
scholar, some the WT's publications say that Russell admitted to getting his chronology and some other ideas, including that pertaining to so-called prophetic dates, (at least some of it) from Second Adventists (including from Barbour). Before the Watch Tower magazine came into existence, Russell and Barbour published of a book written by Barbour called Three Worlds, and the Harvest of This World (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_H._Barbour ). It mentioned 606 BC, 1874 (or 1873), 1878, 1914, and other daters. I read a much of it online. The above mentioned Wikipedia article says the following.
'Though it bore the names of both Barbour and Russell as publishers, the book was written entirely by Barbour, a former Millerite, who used some of preacher William Miller's teachings as its basis.[2][3] Barbour’s writings were highly influential in the development of Russell’s later teachings, which led to the formation of the Bible Student movement and later, Jehovah’s Witnesses. Its computations of the length of the "times of the Gentiles" mentioned at Luke 21:24, calculated as 2,520 years from 606 BC[4] used an interpretation that is still adhered to by Jehovah's Witnesses.[2]
It used the year-day system of interpreting prophecies, presented the idea of a 360-day "prophetic year" and a historicist interpretation of the book of Revelation. It drew on the millenarian studies of 19th-century writers in formulating a system that demonstrated remarkable biblical-mathematical "correspondencies" and modified Bishop James Ussher's chronological calculation to declare that 6,000 years of human history had ended in the autumn of 1873 and that a "morning of joy" was about to begin for humankind.[2] '
Also in 1877 Barbour published Russell's pamphlet called Object and Manner of Our Lord's Return. That pamphlet book/booklet was Russell's first publication. A PDF of that pamphlet can be read online at https://archive.org/details/TheObjectAndMannerOfOurLordsReturn . See also https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/150248/scanned-pdf-russells-1st-book-object-manner-our-lords-return . The opening post at that web page says the following. "The Object and Manner of Our Lord's Return was C. T. Russell's first book (or booklet) and has 64 pages. I think this definitively lays to rest the claim sometimes made that it was first published in 1872 (and thus before the 1874 prediction) as it's clearly labelled 1877 and in the text refers to N.H. Barbour, whom Russell did not meet until 1876."
A different post at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/150248/scanned-pdf-russells-1st-book-object-manner-our-lords-return says the following. "As can be plainly seen in the PDF, Object and Manner gives an 1877 publication date and references Barbour, whom Russell had never heard of in 1873. Having Russell active in publishing before he met Barbour makes him appear more independent. However, he got most of his ideas from Barbour and Object and Manner dates from after he met Barbour."
https://archive.org/details/1875-1880HeraldOfTheMorningAssortedIssues has PDFs of some issues of Herald Of The Morning. A description at that web page says the following.
'1874-1880 Herald of the Morning (assorted issues). Contains scans of several issues of Herald of the Morning magazine, edited by Nelson H. Barbour and co-edited by Charles Taze Russell for about two and a half years. In the summer of 1876, Russell accepted Barbour's understanding of biblical chronology, believing that Christ had returned invisibly in 1874. Russell and Barbour broke fellowship in 1879 and Russell went on to start Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence in 1879. Russell retained the basics of Barbour's chronology until his death. In 1880, however, Barbour rejected the idea that Christ had returned invisibly in 1874, opting for a future return of Christ. The magazine started by Russell is now called The Watchtower and is now circulated by Jehovah's Witnesses.
The WT at https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/Jehovahs-Witnesses-Proclaimers-of-Gods-Kingdom/You-Are-My-Witnesses-Says-Jehovah/Proclaiming-the-Lords-Return-1870-1914/ has an apparently revised edition of one chapter of their Proclaimers book. It admits the following.
'Russell referred quite openly to the assistance in Bible study he had received from others. Not only did he acknowledge his indebtedness to Second Adventist Jonas Wendell but he also spoke with affection about two other individuals who had aided him in Bible study. Russell said of these two men: “The study of the Word of God with these dear brethren led, step by step, into greener pastures.” One, George W. Stetson, was an earnest student of the Bible and pastor of the Advent Christian Church in Edinboro, Pennsylvania.
The other, George Storrs, was publisher of the magazine Bible Examiner, in Brooklyn, New York.... One morning in January 1876, 23-year-old Russell received a copy of a religious periodical called Herald of the Morning. From the picture on the cover, he could see that it was identified with Adventism. The editor, Nelson H. Barbour, of Rochester, New York, believed that the object of Christ’s return was not to destroy the families of the earth but to bless them and that his coming would be not in the flesh but as a spirit. ... Curiously, though, Barbour believed from Biblical time-prophecies that Christ was already present (invisibly) and that the harvest work of gathering “the wheat” (true Christians making up the Kingdom class) was already due.—Matt., chap. 13.
Russell had shied away from Biblical time prophecies. Now, however, he wondered: “Could it be that the time prophecies which I had so long despised, because of their misuse by Adventists, were really meant to indicate when the Lord would be invisibly present to
set up his Kingdom?” With his insatiable thirst for Scriptural truth,
Russell had to learn more. So he arranged to meet with Barbour in
Philadelphia. This meeting confirmed their agreement on a number of
Bible teachings and provided an opportunity for them to exchange views.
“When we first met,” Russell later stated, “he had much to learn from me
on the fulness of restitution based upon the sufficiency of the ransom given for all, as I had much to learn from him concerning time.” Barbour succeeded in convincing Russell that Christ’s invisible presence had begun in 1874. * '
Disilluisioned JW
Your point? Russell acknowledged and expressed his indebtedness to others including Barbour in connection with Barbour with all such contributions helped to build our scheme of wondrous Chronology- Bible Chronology.
scholar JW
Splash
--If you want to open the embarrassing can of worms that CTR created, which have over the years been systematically dropped as teachings by WT, then you need the bumps on your head felt.
Which incidentally was some other quackery CTR believed in.
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Rubbish. The only can of worms is found among those who have become enslaved to a secular chronology that ignores the Bible and further such Bible Chronology enables faithful people to locate themselves in the stream of time by means of being able to understand Prophecy.
scholar JW
