Standing up for National Anthem / Judges

by RubaDub 19 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Faraon

  gumby,

  What always amused me, is how many witnesses would choose to ....go to the bathroom, go get something to drink, or simply go out of the grandstand UNTIL....the anthem and/flag salute was over. Why did dubs do this? Because they were ashamed or embarrassed of the witness stance on this. If they TRUELY believed it was the right thing to do.....they would gladly flaunt their actions.

  The same parents that cannot take criticism for not standing up make their children sit down in school when pledging the flag in plain view of all their classmates, and they cannot run to the washroom every day.

  What hyocrisy and insensitivity towards their children!

  A double standard for their own blood!

  The American pledge goes like this:

  I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under god. Indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

  Here is how it evolved with me:

  I was a Mexican citizen, so I would stand, but not recite it.

  When I was drafted into the army back during the Viet-Nam war they took us to the swear-in ceremony. They told us to give a step forward, which I did. Then they gave us an extended pledge. An overzealous sergeant noticed that I kept my mouth shut and started yelling at me, making a scene. I told him that I wouldn?t do it. He took me out of the room to see a captain. I explained to him that I would never go to war against Mexico because most of my relatives still would be there, and I was a Mexican citizen. He pulled out his elder?s military manual, and gave me a new swearing, which stipulated that I did not want to lose my Mexican citizenship. I told him that unless it specified that I would never go to war against Mexico, I would not swear. He pulled out his manual again, and told me that by the fact that I had given the step forward, I was in the army, so I was to have a big yellow sheet in the middle of my folder indicating that I would never have a military security clearance and not go into war zones.

  Later, in public ceremonies, I would change the last section to ?divisible, with liberty and justice for some? instead of indivisible and all. I knew the rich were the only ones receiving justice and liberty.

  As a dub, I was explained that I could stand up as long as I kept my mouth shut, and had my arms at my side. I saw a JW teacher do this, so I though it was Ok.

  Now I pledge but I keep my mouth shut where I don?t agree.

  I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under god (I am an atheist). Indivisible (The country is divided, which is good for us as humans), with liberty and justice for all (not all receive liberty and justice).

  I think that making compulsory the pledge only for elementary and secondary students is not fair. The whole pledge issue is abusive of children, to begin with. Why is it that college students are not made to recite it?

  These children are forced to be drilled to say something they have no comprehension of. They are vulnerable and do not understand the consequences of what they say.

  Ok, Ok. I am ranting. As for the National Anthem, I only see it as a signal of respect.

  This thread has given me an idea.

  I?ll go to a JW meeting and sit down while everybody stands up for their songs!
• 

  shamus

  Gumby,

  I swear that it happened. I was with about 7 of them... and there was a discussion as to wheather we would be standing... everyone said no except for me! Nothing was said. No, I am not making this up for a change...

  I honestly don't know why something was not said. I was a good boy too when that happened...

  There were some native people below us, and they did not stand for the anthem. I could see why, in a way for them, but for the witnesses....

  I'm pretty dumbfounded right now.
• 

  blondie

  I?ll go to a JW meeting and sit down while everybody stands up for their songs!

  I used to do that, Faraon. It started because it was hard to stand but then I would get a little rebellious feel when some would stare at me. I hated it at the district convention when they would "invite" us to stand for the song and then keep standing for the announcements. I would sit down. Darn, if I'm going to let them dictate when I sit and when I stand!

  Blondie (sitting where she pleases drinking her am cup of coffee)
• 

  gumby

  Shamus,

  I honestly don't know why something was not said

  Shamus ol bud....I believe you 100%. I KNOW that many dubs do not know their OWN beliefs on many matters. I can't tell you how many times myself and other elders had to.........see what the society had to say about matters we were unsure of. Publishers are even more in the dark to many of it's teachings on many matters.

  Faraon,

  Yes.......poor little dub children are put through emotional stress beyond what their parents face. They have other school children to perform their religious beliefs in front of and that is tramatizing to a little one. It is no wonder many turn into little monster rebels when they get the chance. Sad.......very sad.

  Gumby
• 

  Frantic

  I mingled with a fair few of JW's while at school. Keep in mind, this jw didnt go to the meetings at all. So one day, he decided to move from the back of the room (where are the jw's were seated) to the middle where everyone else in the school was sitting. All the JW's noticed this, responding "hey where did Matt go" -. . This school assembly, routinely performed, started with a good morning and to stand for the national anthem. Matt stood. Afterwards, I asked him, "hey man, arent u meant to be up the back??" "it doesnt bother me". . Fact is, he wanted to "fit in" A week later....he had no transport to get home. He asked a fellow jw high school student to take him home, in turn, asking his parents to take Matt home. The parents were adament/stubborn/inflexible, thus shunning him! Matt left the school grounds at 7:00pm, when he could of left at 3:00pm. How rude!?! Frantically Insane Andy.
• 

  bisous

  regarding Pledge:

  I never understood it as a child either. Why my mother suddenly decided to join a crazy religion that subjected me to harrassment and ridicule. I remember being a 4th grader in a new school and being singled out by the teacher for not doing the pledge. New kid in class....quickly shunned as the weirdo and really not understanding why. The first few years my mother was just studying and didn't require me to do these things until later, when she actually contacted the teacher.
• 

  DakotaRed

  Do others here feel that the prohibition about standing for the National Anthem lacks any basis in logic whatsoever???

  I see it as utterly ridiculous. At the same time, they say it is okay to stand for the pledge of allegiance at school, out of respect, to just not recite it. What is the difference if you stand for the National Anthem, and just don't sing it?

  At the same time, they preach to not draw unnecessary attention to yourself, but isn't being the only ones not standing for the National Anthem at a sporting event doing just that?

  It is not worship to show respect for any nations symbols. When I was in foreign nations, I showed respect for their nations and never lost any for my own. Truth be known, I may have more respect for other nations of people posting here than they have themselves and it doesn't impact my feelings about my own nation one little bit. Nor does it impact any belief I still may have towards God.

  To me, that is one the most idiotic stands the JWs take.
• 

  stillajwexelder

  However, if you stand up when required for a person, i.e. a judge in court, it is ok to stand because it is simply showing respect.

  I really can not see what the problem is. I always stand for the national anthem--- it is simply showing respect. Remaining seated would be showing total disrespect and I thought that Romans said we should have repect for the superior authorities. I can not see the problem scripturally at all. Jesus stood respectfully before Pilate didnt he?
• 

  kgrrl

  I am reminded of my elementary school experience.

  My mother would come to my class at the beginning of the school year and speak with my teacher about my her beliefs. She would bring along the school brochure to give to my teacher. I would be so embarrassed and humiliated! Anyway, I would have to leave the classroom and stand outside in the hallway while Oh Canada was playing. My mother had made this arrangement with my teacher so I had no choice in the matter. In grade six, my classroom was a portable in the backyard of the school. I had to leave the portable and stand outside on the steps. In the winter, I would just leave my winter gear on until after I came back in. My classmate's would always ask me at the beginning of the year, every freakin' year, why I left every time the anthem would play. I never knew what to say because I never fully understood the reasons myself. My classmate's thought I was weird. I remember often sitting on the toitet during class, singing the Oh Canada anthem while taking a pee. I knew every chorus. I felt so guilty but I couldn't help singing it's catchy words.

  When I went into junior high, grade seven and eight, my mother thought I was old enough to talk to my teacher myself. I would just give the brochure to her and quickly shy away. Once high school came, I never told any teacher's the truth about the organization I was apart of. I stood up, in class and it felt awesome and right. Mind you, I only when to high school for three weeks and then my mother took me out. I never went back....and that is a whole other story.

  Shit, I forgot about the whole national anthem ordeal...thanks for letting me rant!
• 

  Gretchen956

  one of several teachings that absolutely lacks common sense

  several?? non of their teachings make sense to me.

  Also someone (I can't remember who) talked about those in Malawi not buying a political card. Those people were forced out of their homes and herded like sheep out of the country with people raped and murdered along the way. I grew up on the horror stories of Malawi. Years later I heard that all the time that was going on in Malawi those JWs in Mexico were allowed to buy their political card with the full blessing of the gov body. Why? Now that is a teaching that not only doesn't make sense, it bears with it enough bad karma to sink their whole boat. When you add in the child molestation, those who have died for the blood issue, and so many other teachings that have changed over the years, you begin to wonder how they keep their members so blinded.

  You have to give them credit, they are wonder workers at delusional mind control, cult control, and group think. You have to wonder if the word came down to drink kool-aid laced with arsenic how many of them would be lined up for their dose.

  Sick.

  But I digress... as for the flag salute, I sat there looking stupid and self conscious. As for the national anthem I used to make sure I was in the bathroom because I thought it was stupid.

  Gretchen