Standing up for National Anthem / Judges

by RubaDub 19 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • RubaDub
    RubaDub

    Do others here feel that the prohibition about standing for the National Anthem lacks any basis in logic whatsoever???

    Having been raised in the borg, this is one issue that I NEVER understood.

    The argument has always been that standing up indicated "worship" of the country, the same as saluting the flag (I'm not discussing the flag salute issue here, just the "standing" issue).

    However, if you stand up when required for a person, i.e. a judge in court, it is ok to stand because it is simply showing respect.

    If I travel to Canada and see a hockey game, does my standing for the anthem(s) mean that I am in any way worshiping or in any way "saluting" or offering my life to Canada ??? Of course not. It is just showing respect for the government.

    Sorry, to ramble on, but this is one of several teachings that absolutely lacks common sense.

    ***** Rub a Dub

  • metatron
    metatron

    Of course!

    Most Americans don't bother to vote - do they really worship the US?

    metatron

  • undercover
    undercover

    *** School Brochure (1983) pp.12-16 Flag Salute, Anthems and Voting ***

    ....So then, while others salute and pledge allegiance, our children stand quietly during the flag salute ceremony. But if, for some reason, the flag ceremony is conducted in such a way that simply standing gives evidence of one's participation in the ceremony, our young ones remain seated. In addition, our youths do not march in patriotic parades, which would show their support of the thing honored by the parade. We remain neutral....

    When I was in school, I couldn't even stand. I remember in first grade being forcibly made to stand by a teacher. She grabbed my arm and jerked me up. I responded by letting my legs go limp. She help me up by my wrist the whole time. I went through that when I didn't need to because according to the school brochure, standing is OK.

    As for the National Anthem, I never understood why standing was wrong. I felt it was just showing respect. I've been to NHL games with both US and Canadian teams and both anthems were played. The Americans didn't sit down during the Canadian anthem and the Canadians didn't sit down during the US anthem.

  • Faraon
    Faraon

    undercover,

    As for the National Anthem, I never understood why standing was wrong. I felt it was just showing respect. I've been to NHL games with both US and Canadian teams and both anthems were played. The Americans didn't sit down during the Canadian anthem and the Canadians didn't sit down during the US anthem.

    That is because the Americans worship Canada, and Canadadians Worship the US. Remember, they are part of the two-headed beast under the UN, to which Americans don't really subscribe.

    RubaDub,

    The argument has always been that standing up indicated "worship" of the country, the same as saluting the flag (I'm not discussing the flag salute issue here, just the "standing" issue).

    However, if you stand up when required for a person, i.e. a judge in court, it is ok to stand because it is simply showing respect.

    Plus also a judge can throw you in jail, and they don't take in kindly to not being worshipped.

    Faraon

  • shamus
    shamus

    I always got PISSED OFF when the dubs would do that... I went to a few football games, and the assholes who I was sitting with (dubs, duh) didn't stand... I mean, how disrespectful! You can stand for a judge to give authority to him / her, but when it comes to respecting the government, forget it! How disrespectful and disgraceful!

    The only thing that it did was make you look like an ingnorant ass.

    I stood, and dammed to be those assholes who didn't. I was the only one... it is, after all, a conscience matter, and I did not care one dammed bit what they thought.

  • gumby
    gumby
    I stood, and dammed to be those assholes who didn't. I was the only one... it is, after all, a conscience matter, and I did not care one dammed bit what they thought.

    Mornin shamus.....ya fuzzy headed bastard. Actually it IS NOT ...a conscience mater. Directives are given to publishers to NOT stand during the anthem.

    What always amused me, is how many witnesses would choose to ....go to the bathroom, go get something to drink, or simply go out of the grandstand UNTIL....the anthem and/flag salute was over. Why did dubs do this? Because they were ashamed or embarrassed of the witness stance on this. If they TRUELY believed it was the right thing to do.....they would gladly flaunt their actions.

    Gumby

  • shamus
    shamus

    True, Gumby. ON the point of leaving during the anthem...

    I was told that it was always a conscience matter... so that's how I treated it. Nobody said anything to me.

    Okay. I'ts out.

    I was never a dud. I just alwayz wanted to be... oh wait... I just woke up. Sorry, it is all true now.

  • blondie
    blondie

    I never understood why you had a choice to stand for the flag salute or not, but you could not stand for the national anthem. I asked my mother many times when I was growing up. This doublespeak answer came out when I was an adult.

    w74 1/15 pp. 62-63 Questions from Readers

    ? Why do some of Jehovah?s Christian witnesses stand up for the flag salute but not for the playing of the national anthem??U.S.A.

    Jehovah?s Christian witnesses endeavor to follow God?s Word and the dictates of their Bible-trained conscience. Like Christians in the first century, they view themselves as ?alien residents? in the world of unbelieving mankind and give their loyalty to the kingdom of God by Christ. (1 Pet. 2:11) It is for this reason that they refrain from all acts, including those of a nationalistic nature, that would imply disloyalty to God and his appointed King Jesus Christ.

    It should be kept in mind that a national flag is more than a piece of cloth. It is officially viewed as a sacred symbol of a nation and is treated with reverence. When worn out, for example, the national practice often rules that the flag is not to be disposed of unceremoniously, but is to be ?destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.? There are also regulations governing the hoisting, lowering, folding, flying and displaying of flags. Saluting or pledging allegiance to the flag is considered as a reverent act, an act of sacred devotion, and since the flag is an image of the State, such an act constitutes a form of idolatry.?Compare Exodus 20:4-6; 1 John 5:21.

    While not discouraging others from saluting the flag of any nation, Jehovah?s Christian witnesses feel that they can give such worship only to Jehovah God. They have due respect for the flag of their respective countries, but for them to idolize the flag of any nation and engage in acts of worship to an image of the State would be an act of unfaithfulness toward God and disloyalty toward the kingdom of God?s Son.

    (Now that the WTS has answered a question that wasn't asked...)

    Frequently, the practice is for all in attendance at a flag-salute ceremony to stand and personally salute the flag as a pledge of allegiance to this image of the State. In such a situation the mere act of standing likely is not in itself viewed as an act of worship (not viewed by whom? The "worldly" people, the individual JW, the WTS?). Therefore, many true Christians have seen no objection to standing respectfully, but not saluting and saying the pledge. Of course, conscience enters into the picture. Even if some Witnesses follow this course, others may be moved by their consciences to remain seated or to excuse themselves from the place where the ceremony is going on.

    With regard to the national anthem, sometimes those in a group are expected to stand and sing. This situation, then, would be comparable to what was just mentioned regarding a national flag. However, more often (is this true?) the audience is expected merely to stand while the anthem is played or while it is sung by one person (a soloist) but not by all. In this case, one?s standing would denote approval of the words and sentiments expressed in the song. (Based on this you should be able to stand for the national anthem if the audience is singing along.) Regarding such anthems The Encyclopedia Americana says: "Love of fatherland and pride in one?s country are the keynotes of most national anthems, and in many, religious feeling is blended with patriotic sentiment. National hymns and anthems are frequently closely related to the folk songs of a country or grow out of wars and revolutions." Since Jehovah God is the Creator of the earth, and all nations have a common ancestor, Adam, there is no Scriptural basis for nationalistic pride and feeling of racial superiority. (Acts 17:26) So it might be asked, Could a Christian in any way suggest that he is in agreement with feelings of nationalistic pride? Would it be right for him to join in songs that approve of wars and revolutions?

    Kingdom Song 209 Follow the Warrior King!

    Fearlessly go! (Fearlessly go!)

    As an army, let us go

    To combat the wicked foe;

    Follow the Warrior King, who can never fail.

    Following him, we shall prevail!

    This fact should not be overlooked: The above stand of Jehovah?s witnesses is in no way disrespectful of constituted government authority. Jehovah?s witnesses take absolutely no part in any politics of any country. They never participate in any riots, revolutions or rebellions in an attempt to overthrow a government. They are never disloyal, never engage in subversive agitation or antigovernment activity of any kind. In fact, the Bible says that the temporal governments are an "arrangement of God" and stand "placed in their relative positions by God." More than that, Jehovah?s witnesses are under divine command to give taxes, tribute and honor to such "superior authorities."?Rom. 13:1-7.

    Jehovah?s witnesses, therefore, properly stand up or bow down or even prostrate themselves before a ruler out of honor and respect for his position, if that is the custom of the land. (Gen. 23:7; 42:6; 44:14) But they will not laud such a human ruler as a god. Nor will they bow down or salute or kiss or burn incense in a reverent act of worship before a picture or an image of a ruler or an image of the State, like the one Nebuchadnezzar raised up in the plain of Dura, or like the modern flags of the nations. (Acts 12:21-23; 14:12-15; Dan. 3:1-29) So as long as governments do not make laws contrary to God?s laws as set forth in the Bible, Christians today, like first-century Christians, will be obedient in giving "Caesar?s things to Caesar," and will at the same time render "God?s things to God," namely, their worship and service.?Acts 4:19; 5:29; Mark 12:17.

  • shamus
    shamus
    Jehovah?s Christian witnesses

    That line just makes me want to vomit.

    Yes, Blondie, more double-speak. More garbage... it just gets higher and higher, all the way up to the heavens. It's strange that I didn't get into trouble over that... I am sure that they said it was a conscience matter...

    Ignorant jerks.

  • gumby
    gumby
    I was told that it was always a conscience matter... so that's how I treated it. Nobody said anything to me.

    Shamus.....are you being facetious.....or are you serious on this one?

    The dub stance on this is the same as the brothers in Malawi being told to REFUSE holding a political card. They feel it is a non-neautral stand if you participate, and is being a part of the world.

    BTW......hows this lovely weather doing with your moods?

    ( edited to add.....blondies brain and fingers work 3 times faster than mine. She posted all that before I could type out 3 lines........damn smart-ass women)

    Gumby

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