Are Witnesses advised not to get into discussion’s about evolution with HH?

by Diogenesister 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  slimboyfat

  All JWs are not the same, but when I was young in the 1980s I reckon about 90% of JWs liked a good discussion. Now I think it’s flipped the other way, and about 90% of JWs avoid serious discussions like the plague. In some cases it’s the same JWs who once liked a good discussion, but now can’t face it. I think changes like the “overlapping” generation has knocked their confidence. Many JWs know the game is up, at least on some level, so they don’t have the stomach for serious discussion, because they don’t have confidence they can hold their ground.

  I think JWs could certainly accept evolution at least with respect to animals, plants and other life, and insist that humans alone were a direct creation by God. This is apparently what Russell taught, so it is compatible with their view of the ransom and salvation.
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  Diogenesister

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  SBF think JWs could certainly accept evolution at least with respect to animals, plants and other life, and insist that humans alone were a direct creation by God. This is apparently what Russell taught, so it is compatible with their view of the ransom and salvation.

  I thought Watchtower had made statements that admitted to “micro evolution”. If I get the chance I will explore that with her\ the next JW I meet.

  Tameria2001 I have a feeling you planted a few seeds in her mind...

  She was mid to late twenties I would say, at most, and in my experience it’s a common age for JWs to wake up. Ok you get the younger ones who never really spend any time as an adult witness. Who find the rules restrictive/ see the hypocrisy and allow themselves permission to look at stuff online. But aside from that very young group, people in their late twenties early thirties get to the point where they stop automatically trusting authority figures, the way the very young do. This is the time you begin to mature into who you really are and start to really think about what you want in life.

  I saw it in this young woman’s eyes. That look you get from a witness when they are faking it and you know they are faking it and they know YOU KNOW they are faking it. That look. Poor kid. She’s hanging on for dear life. 😔

  
  

  
  
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  StephaneLaliberte

  I remember going door to door and talking with an atheist. I was alone that day so I was free to speak a bit more sincerely and let the guy at the door express himself.

  I don’t remember much about this conversation, nearly 20 years ago now. However, there was one simple message he conveyed that always stayed with me: You cannot use the following argument: “see how complex something is, surely it must have a designer” and not apply it to God himself. Surely God would be more complex than anything he created. So any escape clause you have for God not needing a creator of his own, you can apply the same thing to everything else.

  I remember I purposefully decided to ignore this argument, but it kept coming back every now and then, until I could no longer ignore it 15 years later. That along with many other things brought me to the reality of our world.
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  waton

  how complex something is, surely it must have a designer” and not apply it to God himself. Surely God would be more complex than anything he created. So any escape clause you have for God not needing a creator of his own, you can apply the same thing to everything else.

  Stephane, for sake of an argument, you make a difference here between God and Creator.

  That conundrum is solved by recognizing that energy itself, surely an attribute of a possible Creator is proven to be indestructible, uncreated, therefore like time,-- eternal. (energy needs time to exist in)

  Eternity, particularly into the future is beyond our horizon, understanding. so please accept that fact.

  Evolution is a process, but requires the right laws and circumstances to work.

  works for you?
  
  
  
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  nicolaou

  I think part of the problem is societal. Modern social media has been killing debate. Young folks who bump into a contrary idea either retreat into their 'group', shout insults or just use 'cut and paste' responses from their small clutch of bookmarked websites.

  Positive reinforcement is everywhere as is the rush to be offended rather than engage in a debate. It's no wonder then that a young dub on the doorstep simply has no clue how to tackle a subject like evolution that so fundamentally opposes their accepted world view.

  Easier to run away.
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  cofty

  This is apparently what Russell taught - SBF

  I've read a lot of Russell's stuff. That is news to me.

  Didn't the Photo Drama of Creation depict the creation of all the 'kinds' of creature?
  
  
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  slimboyfat

  I’ve pointed this out before, see page 6.

  https://archive.org/details/ThePhotodramaOfCreation/page/n7

  “Only in respect to man does the Bible declare a special, direct creation of God.”

  Russell believed that God used “evolution” but not “natural selection”, and that God guided life gradually into different “kinds” and that now those kinds are fixed for good.

  So it’s a kind of acceptance of some form of evolution for animals, but opposed to Darwinianism, which in common with many, Russell understood as a sort of social ideology as much as a biological theory.

  The crucial point is that Russell accepted that God could have used a form of “evolution” to generate all the different animals that now exist, and in principle modern JWs could accept the same without endangering their theology.
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  truthlover123

  I firmly believe the reason that there is no longer an in depth discussion with HH's anymore is that the society almost forbids any outside reading on various subjects i.e. evolution. When answering at the hall, the comments are to stay on point, so much so, very little background or research is done on these studies anymore.. it is all controlled and highly parroted words, even reading the same sentence that was just read from the podium. Very boring and un-intelligent. No thought process going on.. so they are not equipped to deal with searching questions making them able to hold a back and forth conversation. Older JW's can, younger ones cannot.
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  cofty

  SBF thank you for that reference
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  hooberus

  Stephanie wrote:

  I remember going door to door and talking with an atheist. I was alone that day so I was free to speak a bit more sincerely and let the guy at the door express himself.

  I don’t remember much about this conversation, nearly 20 years ago now. However, there was one simple message he conveyed that always stayed with me: You cannot use the following argument: “see how complex something is, surely it must have a designer” and not apply it to God himself. Surely God would be more complex than anything he created. So any escape clause you have for God not needing a creator of his own, you can apply the same thing to everything else.

  I remember I purposefully decided to ignore this argument, but it kept coming back every now and then, until I could no longer ignore it 15 years later. That along with many other things brought me to the reality of our world.