I conclude evolution is guided

by KateWild 532 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    Cofty’s Challenge.

    First of all I would like to make very clear. Cofty’s challenge doesn’t answer K99 questions about the specifics of my research and how it supports the existence of a deity. From the thread that we have both linked earlier today.

    I just have formal Applied Chemistry qualifications, cantleave can confirm this as he has the same or better qualifications. I haven’t done any specific research with regards to supporting the existence of a deity. I feel any google research I do would be bias and I would not find it credible.

    My OP is simply my opinions based on my knowledge, which may be less extensive than cantleave’s knowledge and he has the opposing opinions with similar chemistry background.

    Even though Soai solved the puzzle of homochirality this http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ar5003208 is not related to this ……….

    The fourth form — the DL mixture, is not a single molecule, but a mixture of equal amounts of D and L isomers. It does not rotate polarized light (like the meso form) because the rotation of light by the D and L forms is equal in amount but opposite in direction. It is possible to separate the DL mixture into the two isomers, each of which does rotate light. In the 1840s, Louis Pasteur determined that each of the two isomers of tartaric acid rotated light in opposite directions, and the meso form was inactive in this respect. He also separated by hand, crystals of the racemic mixture to show that it was made of equal amounts of the D and L forms, making it different than the meso form of tartaric acid.

    Cut and pasted from here http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ar5003208

    This is what I said in my word salad a few days ago when I discussed refractive index and racemic mixtures I think my word salad, a few pages ago says the same as this. The word meso has the exact same definition and the word racemic, which I just found out today. But they are different. A racemic mixture means the d-enantiomer and the l-enantiomer are not chemically bonded, and a meso compound means that the enantiomers have positively and negatively charged ions and this means the enantiomers are chemically bonded. I learnt this today. It was fun. Another difference is that a meso compound apparently cannot be separated and a racemic mixture can. Because Luis Pasteur said that the meso compound is not optically active. But it’s very likely that a chemist has found a way to do it today. People are on forums discussing it. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.chem/C_vvHxrufhQ

    Cofty if you understand your link I am confused why you don’t understand my cut and paste, my word salad, and why my conclusion or opinion has nothing to do with solving the puzzle of homochirality.

    But you gave me a challenge to put it in simple terms so I will.

    Skip to simplification if you wish

    I am going to explain it in terms of a coin toss and probabilities. Cofty, I know you think it’s NOTHING like a coin toss. I saw your caps lock comment before you deleted it, using caps lock doesn’t substantiate your point. Explain succinctly why a coin toss explanation is wrong. If you prefer to use caps lock to explain it feel free to do so, but caps lock has no bearing on any information I read.

    I am going to assign…………….

    l-enantiomer = heads

    d-enantiomer = tails

    Alanine = 2p

    Glucose = 5p

    Methanol = 10p

    Tartaric acid = 20p

    The size of the coins has no bearing on scale in relation to the size of the molecule. I just assigned the coins randomly. You could invert the assignment too if you like.

    Toss a 2p 100 times autocatalysis always occurs you get 99 heads

    Toss a 5p 100 times autocatalysis always occurs you get 99 tails (never heads)

    Toss a 10p 100 times autocatalysis never occurs you get 48 heads 52 tails or 52 heads 48 tails (slight imbalance)

    Toss a 20p 100 times autocatalysis never occurs you get 52 heads 48 tails or 48 heads 52 tails (slight imbalance)

    The probability of these results without guidance is lower than the probability of these results with guidance. Each different coin or chemical will always yield the same results.

    The website I found my word salad on is just a company that sells tartaric acid. It’s not an organic chemistry book. So if you dispute it’s credibility that’s fine. I won’t argue with that. But I know it’s right because I learnt my word salad from an organic chemistry book that I can’t reference because I gave it away. But I might buy a new one, because it’s useful.

    K99 this in no way is evidence that supports the existence of a deity. I don’t claim to have this evidence.

    Angus I agree that this is evidence of guidance by the laws of physics and chemistry perhaps the creators name is Laws of Physics and Chemistry. Does that mean I am a deist or pantheist, or believe in Spinoza’s God? I actually think I believe in Sam’s God, a definition of my very own that no one else has.

    Yes I agree also that life is what chemistry does. If there was no chemistry there would be no life. But that’s abiogenesis. A different thread.

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    K99 I am interested in the link. I will read it now

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    K99,

    I am finding your link really interesting and it's more up to date than Soai's reaction. This is an excerpt

    Furthermore, such organoautocatalytic reactions should involve merely linear autocatalysis (unlike to Soai's example) in the light of lacking coordination sites at a metal allowing to form multiple catalytic aggregates. Linear autocatalysis alone, though, cannot result in the observed asymmetric amplification

    To put in simple terms

    50p yield different results that are not asymmetric amplification. I don't how to assign the 50p and I don't know the results. I haven't finished the paper but I will do some research to fill in my gaps of knowledge. I might even find out that they are talking about the 20p, but I doubt it.

    Also noteworthy is the fact there are more chemicals than coins. I have only two left, or three if you count 1p which I didn't start with. So really this also shows that I didn't randomly choose coins, I am intellectually dishonest for saying it was random. Seriously though it just highlights that many random things have organisation. Even a coin toss which usually results in 50/50. But I can see why this would be a reason why a coin toss is not a suitable way to simplify. But it was the best if you only use four chemicals.

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    oops I made a mistake about the 20p there is no puzzle here.

    Toss a 20p 100 times autocatalysis never occurs you get 50 heads and 50 tails (never imbalance even at the point of formation)

    Too late to edit my post. But I will summarise in a few days.

  • Simon
    Simon
    it just highlights that many random things have organisation

    No, you are mistaking non-uniformity with organization.

    People think random distribution is clump-free, but it isn't - it only approaches that at huge population sizes (and is rarely perfectly spread). In fact, if things were perfectly distributed it would point to lack of randomization and some order.

    People often point to clusters of cancer cases as proof there is some local cause and not just random chance, because they don't understand basic probability theory.

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Nature is the most famous scientific journal sources known.

    Kate......No offence, you could not have done any credible chemistry education and not know that.

    You really should retract everything you have said so as to not unfairly confuse people looking for sincere answers. You have diverted them from reliable sources and introduced issues long sho resolved.

    Again, I'm blown away by your comments on Nature, it probably has the highest impact factor of all peer reviewed journals.

  • KateWild
    KateWild
    No, you are mistaking non-uniformity with organization.
    People think random distribution is clump-free, but it isn't - it only approaches that at huge population sizes (and is rarely perfectly spread). In fact, if things were perfectly distributed it would point to lack of randomization and some order.
    People often point to clusters of cancer cases as proof there is some local cause and not just random chance, because they don't understand basic probability theory. - Simon

    Oh wow Simon you're good at maths too, I thought non-uniformity was the same as random. And uniformity was the same as organised. I have to admit my understanding of probability is the coin toss experiment you do at school. Something I am interested in though I will look into it.

    Kate......No offence, you could not have done any credible chemistry education and not know that. - Snare

    I went to LJMU, and we were told the New Scientist was the journal to subscribe to. Angus told me the Nature Journal is much better. I am not offended Snare, tell it to me straight lol. I know you mean well.

    You really should retract everything you have said so as to not unfairly confuse people looking for sincere answers. - Snare

    You're absolutely right. I did retract what I said about it not being credible a couple of pages ago.

  • cofty
    cofty
    Cofty’s challenge doesn’t answer K99 questions about the specifics of my research and how it supports the existence of a deity. - Kate

    I have no idea what you mean. What research?

    Even though Soai solved the puzzle of homochirality

    Well done on FINALLY admitting Soai solved the puzzle. What else is there to say?

    this http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ar5003208 is not related to this …

    It is TOTALLY related. Soai has continued to research homochirality in the years since his breakthrough in 1995. This paper is a very recent example from 2014. He started with a racemic mixture with an 'ee' of 0.00005%. Following the reaction the 'ee' was over 99.5%.

    How can this not be germane to a conversation about the naturalistic cause of homochirality?

    The probability of these results without guidance is lower than the probability of these results with guidance - Kate

    No it isn't.

    I have explained over and over why autocatalysis leads to homochirality and normal catalytic reactions don't.

    Serious question - would you like me to explain it one more time?

  • OzGirl
    OzGirl

    Have given the same presentation for many years. I just reel off the main points. Then go back and explain the main points. Questions with short answers I deal with as I go. Questions with longer answers I deal with at the end of the presentation.

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    How I've missed Viv's mindless flapping as she struggles to make her point.

    I don't really remember you. Have we spoken before?

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