BBC Radio 4. 14th February 2016. ''Sunday'' program with article on Witnesses and child abuse.

by ThomasCovenant 76 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • Phizzy

    It seems so Landy and Cofty, no wonder, any in-house Legal Advice comes form guys and gals who have not really practiced in the real world, a world where you must do your Homework thoroughly, and not think that because Big J is on your side you will win regardless.

    As Joshua Rosenburg ( a big hitter in the U.K legal world) pointed out, these guys have not even studied the Data Protection Act that they are trying to hide behind, and seem not to be aware of a later Act that trumps the DPA and makes it a Criminal Offence if Elders have destroyed evidence.

    Watch out Elders ! if you are called to account for this YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN ! The WT/JW Org will not help you one bit !

  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy


    Thanks for your kind comment. I am not a qualified lawyer, but in my former career was quite specialised and was able to guide prosecution lawyers, IYSIM. Certainly in conference with barristers, incl. QCs, the discussion was between equals. However, I have been retired for ten years and so my knowledge is not current so I am always open to correction.

    I was intrigued by the shambles of evidence that the WT put forward at the ARC hearings. WT knew what they were going to be asked and I would have expected a multi-million dollar corporation to have prepared better. Toole, as the lead lawyer in Australia, was -to be honest - a joke. I have arrested, interviewed and had convicted far sharper lawyers than him in small towns in Wales - and he was national legal adviser!

    I don't know whether WT took this on board, but it should have done. The shenanigans surrounding Jackson's appearance before ARC was a big deal. Watch the WT lawyer (the real one, not Toole) squirm and apologise to HHJ explaining that he had been misled by the WY head honchos. This does not happen very often and it really is a big deal.

    I wonder whether WT HQ and its lawyers, sitting in the US, have really grasped what they're dealing with. My limited knowledge of US federal law suggests that there is a sort of blanket immunity for religions under the constitution, and certainly the weight of religious vote is important. That's not the case in the UK (or in Australia) and religious organisations generally have no ;get of jail free' card.

    More to follow ...

  • Mephis
    As Joshua Rosenburg ( a big hitter in the U.K legal world) pointed out, these guys have not even studied the Data Protection Act that they are trying to hide behind, and seem not to be aware of a later Act that trumps the DPA and makes it a Criminal Offence if Elders have destroyed evidence.

    Rosenburg misunderstood the intent. It's the right of the individual to obtain information under the Data Protection Act which is the reason behind the destruction of files/notes etc, not a misguided belief they are obligated to destroy data.

  • breakfast of champions
    breakfast of champions
    Thanks for the link THOMAS COVENANT. Will listen later with Mrs Breakfast.
  • Phizzy

    It starts to get to JW stuff about 32/33 minutes in. Happy listening !

  • Landy
    More to follow ...

    Do we know if they are bound by the dpa yet or if they have claimed exemption?

    It would be amusing if they had claimed exemption as their statement claimed the reason for the instruction to destroy documents was the DPA.

  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy

    In relation to the destruction of material ...

    In relation to 'special procedure material' under PACE 1984, i.e. material (documents etc.) held by a party (e.g. a bank, accountant, whatever) under a duty of confidence, this was only obtainable by an investigator (constable etc) under a Production Order from a Circuit Judge. When making an application for a PO, notice was given to the holder of the material so that they could appear before the judge to argue the PO if they wished. The notice always pointed out to the holder of the material that - having been put on notice about the material - the material was therefore protected from destruction etc. under the law.

    My point is this. Lawyers know about this sort of stuff. They will be very well aware of the general notice given by HHJ Goddard even if a specific notice was not served on WTBTS/IBSA UK (and I don't yet know whether a notice was served or not, perhaps WT was too small to be included). But an admitted Solicitor or a Barrister will have no excuse whatsoever.

    I suspect that right now there are frenzied communications going back and forth between UK and US (just as I;m sure there were similar communications between Australia and US during the ARC hearings).

    We all saw (and the world has seen) what a complete horlicks the WT made of the ARC hearings. The current climate in the UK regarding historic abuse does not bode well for the WT if it continues to obfuscate. I, for one, wouldn't want to be an elder hung out to dry for my actions - or even for shredding my notes.

  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy


    Yes, charities and not-for-profits are included under the Data Protection Act in England & Wales.

  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy

    Here is the Data Protection registration for WT UK:

    Information Commissioners Office logo

    Data Protection Register - Entry Details

    Registration Number: Z5281400

    Date Registered: 16 February 2001 Registration Expires: 15 February 2017


    NW7 1RN

    This register entry describes, in very general terms, the personal data being processed by:


    Nature of work - Charity (National)

    Description of processing

    The following is a broad description of the way this organisation/data controller processes personal information. To understand how your own personal information is processed you may need to refer to any personal communications you have received, check any privacy notices the organisation has provided or contact the organisation to ask about your personal circumstances.

    Reasons/purposes for processing information

    We process personal information to enable us to provide a voluntary service for the benefit of the national public as specified in our constitution; administer membership records; to fundraise and promote the interests of the charity; manage our employees and volunteers; maintain our own accounts and records. Our processing also includes the use of CCTV systems for the prevention of crime.

    Type/classes of information processed

    We process information relevant to the above reasons/purposes. This may include:

    • personal details
    • family details
    • lifestyle and social circumstances
    • membership details
    • goods and services
    • financial details
    • education and employment details
    • visual images, personal appearance and behaviour

    We also process sensitive classes of information that may include:

    • physical or mental health details
    • racial or ethnic origin
    • religious or other beliefs of a similar nature
    • offences and alleged offences
    • criminal proceedings, outcomes and sentences
    • trade union membership

    Who the information is processed about

    We process personal information about:

    • members
    • staff, volunteers
    • supporters
    • complainants, enquirers
    • advisers
    • representatives of other organisations
    • individuals captured by CCTV images

    Who the information may be shared with

    We sometimes need to share the personal information we process with the individual themself and also with other organisations. Where this is necessary we are required to comply with all aspects of the Data Protection Act (DPA). What follows is a description of the types of organisations we may need to share some of the personal information we process with for one or more reasons.

    Where necessary or required we share information with:

    • members
    • family, associates or representatives of the person whose personal data we are processing
    • employees
    • current, past and prospective employers
    • healthcare, social and welfare organisations
    • providers of goods and services
    • educator and examining bodies
    • financial organisations
    • employment and recruitment agencies
    • survey and research organisations
    • business associates and professional advisers
    • police forces
    • local and central government
    • other companies in the same group as the data controller
    • other voluntary and charitable organisations


    It may sometimes be necessary to transfer personal information overseas. When this is needed information may be transferred to countries or territories around the world. Any transfers made will be in full compliance with all aspects of the data protection act.

    © Copyright
  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy

    So there you have it.. When you join the organisation (JWs) you are agreeing to the above data collection, retention and sharing.

    How many 'bible studies' are made aware of this? I could make a guess.

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