Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality

by Designer Stubble 174 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  cofty

  Perhaps you only actively make excuses for human beings based on their 'religion'?

  Religion is not a valid excuse for anything that would not be otherwise acceptable. You really haven't read any of my 18k posts condemning religion in general and the WT in particular have you?

  I have never made any excuses for the WT on their attitude to homosexuality or any other topic.

  But you know that already.

  My question still stands. The bible condemns homosexuality. The WT is predicated on obedience to the bible.

  What would you have them do or say?
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  M*A*S*H

  @Cofty.

  Firstly you know full well I have read many of your posts, I made this clear in a previous comment on this thread.
  Secondly...

  I have never made any excuses for the WT on their attitude to homosexuality or any other topic. [Cofty]

  My point is that characterising the Watchtower as hateful and homophobic seems a bit heavy in comparison. [Cofty]

  Thirdly I have already answered your question.

  I expect them to change their interpretation of the bible.

  They could consider the verses in Matthew 19 v 10-12 as I also mentioned earlier in the topic.
  So if we are not making excuses anymore... is the WBTS homophobic Cofty or does that seem a bit heavy?
  
• 

  cofty

  I expect them to change their interpretation of the bible.

  There is no reasonable way to interpret the bible other than a total unequivocal condemnation of gay sex as a sin.

  Do you think it is realistic that they could authorise gay weddings in Kingdom Halls and appoint men who are in a gay marriage as elders? How would they sell that without losing most of their membership overnight?

  is the WBTS homophobic

  I have already answered your question very clearly multiple times.
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  M*A*S*H

  @Cofty. I would not say you have answered the question clearly at all... for example

  By that definition no the Watchtower are not homophobic. Other dictionaries define the word in ways that would encompass the position of the cult. [Cofty]

  My point is that characterising the Watchtower as hateful and homophobic seems a bit heavy in comparison. [Cofty]

  You even made up a spectrum of homophobia (that does not exist). I think I showed that even the definition of homophobia you used (from ADL) applies to the WBTS because they in some forms 'fear' homosexuals. Again you seem reluctant?

  There is no reasonable way to interpret the bible other than a total unequivocal condemnation of gay sex as a sin.

  There is no reasonable way to explain the overlapping generations, but that is current theology. It would only take a similar amount of mental gymnastics to reinterpret the bible to better fit today's society.

  This page shows some interesting views on the topic from a Christian source. As time moves on and a more liberal generation fills the ranks I am sure views will soften and eventually acceptance will increase. Public condemnation of their homophobic views will play a part in this.

  You assume that if the 'new light' came out tomorrow 'accepting homosexuals' they would lose most of their membership. Firstly, I thought that when they redefined the generation in 95... didn't happen. Second of all, a great many members I suspect would just hail the change as further evidence of a loving God that is communicating through the FDS.

  Sadly I think the older JWs will have to die out before change can happen. However until then I personally believe continued condemnation of their homophobic views should be called out - as I am sure many JW's find this a worst embarrassing and at best a reason to question their behaviours.
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  cofty

  You even made up a spectrum of homophobia (that does not exist)

  Of course it does.

  All attitudes, beliefs and actions are on a spectrum.

  The church I used to belong to would genuinely welcome gay men. To them gay sex was no worse than hetrosexual sex outside marriage. However they would have said no to a request for a gay marriage, they would not have baptised an actively gay man. They "hated the sin but loved the sinner."

  ISIS throw gay men from tall buildings.

  This is clearly a spectrum of discrimination against gay men.

  Somebody who takes a pencil from Argos has committed an act of theft. So has somebody who mugs an old age pensioner for their purse. If you really want to be a pedant we can just label them both thieves and ignore the details.
  

  Seeing that one bad thing is not as bad as another bad thing is not the same as approving of the first bad thing.

  many members I suspect would just hail the change as further evidence of a loving God that is communicating through the FDS.

  You are mistaken. They would suspect all of the issues facing the organisation were a result of god removing his blessing due to their disobedience to the bible.
• 

  M*A*S*H

  All attitudes, beliefs and actions are on a spectrum.

  Homophobia is the noun that describes the range (or spectrum if you like) of acts that are homophobic. Any one act is or is not homophobic. I know you do not like to argue semantics, but again to me considering your assertion you do not to offer excuses for people, you seem to be on that slippery slope again.
  
  I think it is quite sad that you think I am a pedant because I want to ensure that people label the WBTS as homophobic without offering excuses. For many people the details matter, clearly not for you.
  

  You are mistaken

  I sometimes forget how much more of an authority you are on the thoughts and views of the members of the WBTS than I. Anyway, I am pretty sure they prophesy the love of the greater number will wear off.
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  LoveUniHateExams

  From your article, Mash: We understand the illegality of consenting same-sex relations to be incompatible with international human rights law - you do know that Islamic countries have opted out of international Human Rights law and instead adopted the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam, right? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Islamic_countries)

  Re western nations putting political pressure on homophobic goverments to be less homophobic, I'd say that they are currently failing.

  Any one act is or is not homophobic - this is correct, but can we just agree that some some homophobic acts are much, much worse than others?

  With this in mind, it is puzzling that extremists killing gays for being gay elicits little outrage in progressive Media - what little outrage that is expressed is disproportionate to the atrocities committed. There's nothing wrong with pointing this out and wondering why.
• 

  M*A*S*H

  @LoveUniHateExams

  I agree Western govs are failing in many countries, this does not of course mean they are not trying. The FCO do not limit their work to countries signed to one HR law. You asked for some evidence so I thought I would post the link.

  I would hope that everyone agrees some acts of homophobia are worse than others. However, some might disagree on how damaging a religion producing homophobic literature can be, especially when some allow such homophobic views to be excused as petty.

  As for the disproportionate 'outrage'. I do not think that racism is a good explanation for this.
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  Caedes

  LUHE, did they not teach you how to do basic research at your university?

  It's just a shame that expectations of our society are placed above the suffering of gay people in far-flung hell-holes by intelligent, Western, 'progressive' people who claim to care.

  You are dismissive when you put the word progressive in scare quotes and stating "progressives claim to care" the insinuation being that they don't. The tone of your opinions on this matter clearly show your opinion of progressives and their viewpoint. The fact that you equate disagreeing with you as tolerating throwing people off buildings is ridiculous and quite frankly I doubt you would dare suggest such a thing in person.

  At no point have I said that any opinions should not be questioned, I am stating that your argument seems to be that the responsibility for LGBT persecution is the fault of western progressives not being war mongery enough, I say your opinion should be questioned because of it's sheer stupidity.

  Since we have had military action for some time now and the rights of the LGBT community has not improved by your reasoning that means that you are tolerating pushing gays off tall buildings?

  It is interesting to note that you seem to be conflating a call for for military action against ISIS and condemnation of ISIS. The two are separate things and you can support one and not the other.

  Here are some examples of the pressure western governments have bought against a number of countries on the subject of LGBT rights:

  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25775002
  

  http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/nigeria-anti-gay-laws-us-puts-pressure-president-buhari-allow-same-sex-unions-1511028
  

  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-29651227

  The American campaign on LGBT rights in Africa has been in the news a lot over the last few years, I am quite surprised that you are not better informed on a subject you claim to care about so deeply.

  The fact that these regimes are often propped up by western governments does not have anything to do with the fact that pressure has been put on a large number of countries to improve their LGBT rights.

  What evidence do you have that progressives are dictating the issues that the LGBT community care about?

  Pushing gays off buildings is way down the list, it seems.

  Is that apart from the evidence I showed you earlier showing how high up on the list it is?
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  LoveUniHateExams

  You are dismissive when you put the word progressive in scare quotes and stating "progressives claim to care" - no, I'm not being dismissive, I'm just questioning progressive perspective and attitudes. I do generally wonder whether progressives care about the fate of gay people living in countries that have captial punishment for gay activities. No more, no less.

  Is that apart from the evidence I showed you earlier showing how high up on the list it is? - your earlier evidence did no such thing. It merely showed the number of articles written about ISIS vs. the number written about Trump and Brexit.

  you seem to be conflating a call for for military action against ISIS and condemnation of ISIS - there's no conflation going on. Military action against homophobic extremists obviously shows no tolerance for murder of gays living in extremist territory. What other avenues are there?

  Good news re Uganda and Nigeria. But, returning to Mash's link, it states there that priority should be given to those countries that have capital punishment for gay activities. Of course, those countries still have capital punishment for gay acts, despite the document stating that the West should get tough on this. Unfortunately, I think it's fair to say that Western countries are failing in this regard. Ban Ki Moon wearing a purple tie achieves nothing.