Awake #4/2016: Homosexuality

by Designer Stubble 174 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Anony Mous

  The difference between being outraged at atrocities in Westerner countries vs Islamic countries is simply because we expect more from our own society.

  LGBT get murdered in America quite frequently as well by extreme right Christians (including JW). There are not many reports on those because neither Christians in Bumfuck, Arizona and Islamists in Sand Country are going to change their ways.

  But at least we can try to fix issues in the more intelligent parts of our countries where such behavior and believes are no longer acceptable.

  In Europe, religion was almost eradicated before the recent Islamic Invasion, people haven't found LGBT persecution to be acceptable at all there for decades. The resurgence in both Islamic and Christian ideology regards capital punishment go hand in hand (one drives the other) and are quite shocking to regular, intelligent Europeans, hence the reporting.
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  LoveUniHateExams

  The difference between being outraged at atrocities in Westerner countries vs Islamic countries is simply because we expect more from our own society - good point, you may be right.

  It's just a shame that expectations of our society are placed above the suffering of gay people in far-flung hell-holes by intelligent, Western, 'progressive' people who claim to care. So depressing ...
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  cofty

  we expect more from our own society - Anon

  Is that not the racism of low expectations?

  I refuse to make excuses for any human being based on their race or culture.
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  LoveUniHateExams

  Is that not the racism of low expectations? - good question, Cofty, it's certainly worth asking.

  As I've said before, progressive perspectives and attitudes on this deserve to be questioned.

  Anon points out that gay people are murdered in the US. What he doesn't say is that that is illegal and the legal system punishes the murderers, something that doesn't happen when a country has capital punishment for gay people.

  The UK has made great leaps forward regarding the LGBT community. Most of the old barriers have come down to some degree (rightfully so). I'm sure homophobic bullying goes on in schools. This is bad and must be fought and eliminated.

  But, imagine being gay and living in other parts of the world, non-Western countries. Life must be hell for such people.
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  konceptual99

  Imagine being gay or not conforming to the norms inside some communities inside the UK or other Western countries.

  FGM still continues inside the UK.

  Forced marriage still continues inside the UK.

  Fear of witchcraft and superstition still motivates the abuse and worse of children in the UK.

  The Witnesses are not the only group in the UK that shun those who are deemed to have transgressed, some to even more extreme levels than most Witnesses.
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  DJS

  Well stated Cofty: I refuse to make excuses for any human being based on their race or culture.

  The subjugation of women is where Islam begins and ends. And it is based on the poor pathetic Muslim males, none of whom can apparently control their urges. Muslim males are infantalized by their culture and religious beliefs. Poor little boys.

  A woman who shows her body in any manner is deserving of scorn, rape, even death, because poor little Muhammed just can't help his pathetic little self. And if a man rapes a woman, even his daughter, the Islamic leaders can find a way to blame shift it to the woman, even if she is a 12 year old girl.

  From hijabs to burkas to forced genital mutilation to women not being able to drive or vote, et al, it all begins and ends with the premise that pathetic weak Muslim males just can't help their pathetic weak selves.

  JWDaughter, why you bought into this nonsense is beyond me. It is a disgusting culture deserving of annihilation. And please don't come back with the nonsense about all Muslims not being that way. As Free Mind Fade pointed out a few weeks ago, there are snippets and portions of this type of behavior and thinking in every Muslim/Islamic culture, teaching, country because it can be found in their holy book. And after that let's get rid of the hate filled x-tians.

  That is what this planet sorely needs right now.
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  Caedes

  The fact is that there isn't a scale at which it is appropriate to talk about injustice. LUHE wants to suggest that an LGBT news site should carry opinion pieces about supporting military action because ISIS kill gay people.

  The facts as I have demonstrated show that Pink news have covered that story in depth, that they are a news site and don't carry many opinion pieces and that their coverage of the story is consistent with their reporting on other stories.

  LUHE hasn't really explained why he feels that other stories shouldn't be covered or why more emotional reporting in this instance would useful or helpful.

  I would argue that progressive attitudes regarding the issue of the killing of gays by ISIS is that they find it as disgusting as LUHE does, do not mistake a difference of opinion in how it is addressed as being some sort of tolerance.

  But fundamentally where I disagree is that there is any benefit in concentrating on only one issue. There has been a huge shift in the west over it's attitude to the rights of all sorts of minority groups. Fighting against injustice is as important in the west (over what may be trivial issues compared to the dangers elsewhere) as it is anywhere, because those shifts in attitude have been won by people (the progressives that are dismissed by LUHE) fighting over one issue at a time.

  Arguing for rights in the west doesn't hinder the fight for justice in the middle east it helps that fight. You can see evidence for that in the political pressure bought by western governments (that only a few short years ago were advocating for discriminatory legislation themselves such as the UK Govt and clause 28) . You don't give up because you don't get everything you ask for, it isn't an all or nothing fight just look at gay marriage for example.

  In short LUHE doesn't get to dictate the issues that LGBT people should be interested in, he doesn't get to say what progressive attitudes are to injustice and neither does he get to decide the 'correct' level of shock that a news site should express in its reporting.
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  LoveUniHateExams

  (the progressives that are dismissed by LUHE) - I'm not dismissing progressives. I said that most of the old barriers have come down in the UK (thanks to action by progressives), and rightfully so.

  To criticise is not to dismiss. Progressive perspectives and attitudes aren't beyond criticism or questioning.

  I would argue that progressive attitudes regarding the issue of the killing of gays by ISIS is that they find it as disgusting as LUHE does, do not mistake a difference of opinion in how it is addressed as being some sort of tolerance - homophobic extremists are pushing gays off buildings and stoning them to death. By not condemning said extremists and by not supporting military action against them, progressives are tolerating the killing of gays by extremists (tolerate: allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one dislikes or disagrees with) without interference - oxforddictionaries.com).

  You can see evidence for that in the political pressure bought by western governments - please show evidence that western governments have brought political pressure on governments run by homophobic extremists to be less homophobic.

  For instance, has any western government brought political pressure on Mauritania, Northern Nigeria, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen, Saudi or Iran to do away with capital punishment for homosexual activities?

  In short LUHE doesn't get to dictate the issues that LGBT people should be interested in - you're quite right.

  Unfortunately, progressives get to dictate the issues that LGBT people should be interested in.

  Pushing gays off buildings is way down the list, it seems.
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  Simon

  You can see evidence for that in the political pressure bought by western governments- please show evidence that western governments have brought political pressure on governments run by homophobic extremists to be less homophobic.

  It's quit the opposite - oppressive regimes like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are often propped up and supported by western governments.
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  M*A*S*H

  please show evidence that western governments have brought political pressure on governments run by homophobic extremists to be less homophobic.

  https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/35442/human-rights-lgbt.pdf

  On a different line of debate, I am still a little unsure why some view the amount of debate on a homophobic video as racism? I have posted on JWN regarding this video multiple times but I have not commented on this forum (as far as I remember) regarding the ISIS murder of homosexuals. It seems that some view this as racism?

  I am just wondering at what point comment, opinion and outrage over this video becomes racism of some kind. If I post one comment on the video and non on the ISIS murders does that make me a racist? If I post 100 comments and non on the ISIS murders am I a racist?

  @Cofty. As you quite commendably said 'I refuse to make excuses for any human being based on their race or culture' would you agree that the WBTS' video and literature demonstrates the organisation is homophobic? Perhaps you only actively make excuses for human beings based on their 'religion'?

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