Toasting is Pagan - How many contradictions can fit in 2 pages, I found 5? (page 2)

brandnew

For some weird reason.....i totally feel that jesus was toasting when he held up the cup of wine and said what he said at the last supper. Sounds very much like a toast to his rememberance. N stuff.

Mad Puppy

Barrold Bonds

Of course wedding rings have roots in 'pagan' religion, but those are ok because those pagan roots have been long forgotten.

Londo111

I remember reading it and being confused. And not agreeing at all with the conclusions of the article.

Thinking about this a little - what's the difference between a wedding ring and toasting or clincking glasses? I submit that the difference is one of separation from society - failure to wear a wedding ring wouldn't be that noticeable to most and wouldn't really cause you to feel like an outsider in the world. In fact it may draw a little extra attention from those that think you're single. This is to be avoided, so wedding rings are considered good.

Toasting, on the other hand, is something that most in the group won't notice that you don't do if you're out with normal people. But you notice. You see them do it and you know you can't join it. You're intensely aware that you are not like these people. They are different. You don't fit in. Even if you're not happy as a JW, you have no where else to go because you don't belong with these people either.

You can pretty easily go through the list of things they reject on account of pagan origins and the ones they don't in spite of their pagan origins and this holds true for pretty much all of them. If it's something that would go pretty unnoticed either way it's OK to do, but if not doing something makes you feel like an outsider, you can't do it.

under the radar

And don't forget the piñata conundrum. Every argument about "pagan origins" and "false worship" used to forbid toasting could also apply to piñatas. Heck, even luaus (Hawaiian cookouts). But the false GODs (Guardians of Doctrine) in Brooklyn (soon to be Warwick) have decreed that piñatas and luaus are okay today because they are no longer have religious connotations and are therefore harmless as part of "approved" celebrations.

That's actually a reasonable position to take, but why aren't they consistent when it comes to other things? It seems like they just arbitrarily pick which things still have "pagan stink" on them and which don't.

There are a widely read satirical articles about True Christians™ wearing makeup and keeping cats that emulate Watchtower reasoning and make a mockery of it at the same time. They're hilarious, but they make a valid point. Many Watchtower rules are capricious and downright silly, and the reasoning behind them specious and self-serving.

It's all about control, folks. Blind obedience in small things leads to unquestioning compliance in big things. Here is official Watchtower policy, as stated in the November 15, 2013 Watchtower, page 20, “At that time, the lifesaving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.”

That's scary! Unquestioning obedience is one thing that led many otherwise good and decent Germans to become merciless mass murderers... twice in one generation! In World War II, they put their faith and trust in the Führer and his Nazi Party and committed unspeakable horrors that affect us all to this day. "I was only following orders" was not an acceptable excuse then, and should not be today.

Don't let anyone else do your thinking for you. Blind obedience has never worked out well in the long term... for anyone.

slimboyfat

Excellent points. As a sort arbitrary mirror image of the approach of this article, wasn't there also an issue that dealt with wedding rings, concluded they were pagan in origin, but for some random reason that they were okay anyway?

Beth Sarim

So many rules. RULES. Stifling, like sitting in a hot car parked in the sun. Couldn't stand it.

OutsiderLookingIn

Great OP and topic generally. As a never dub, the endless string of rules and contradictory reasoning is truly mind-numbing.

OneEyed Joe, I reach the same conclusion about the "difference" between wedding rings and toasting, but for the exact opposite reason. Everything JWs do is to raise their conspicuousness. It's all about how they can stand out. Wedding rings accomplish this goal. Marriage is still generally respected and respectable in our society. And as a single woman, I definitely notice a wedding ring lol. So a JW with a wedding ring and org pin (ugh) makes a statement without saying a word: I'm a JW and I believe in the sanctity of marriage (whether or not it's true).

As for not toasting, I think it is conspicuous in a small group (which is generally how toasts are made at a table...you try to clink glasses with everyone). If the one JW at the table abstains, someone might ask, why didn't you join in? Giving them an opportunity to give a witness (read: rain on everyone else's parade). I certainly think it's why JWs aren't permitted to celebrate holidays even non-religious ones. What better witness than to differentiate yourself multiple times a year for no good reason? But what's the one thing they are allowed to celebrate? Hmmm... Because JWs are so respectable It's just gross. The control is sickening.

steve2

And then you have a monumental lurch from frowning upon these relatively small and inconsequential social gestures to allowing witnesses in Chile to raise flags on flagpoles erected on kingdom hall properties in obedience to the secular authority.

Straining at gnats and gulping down camels, huh?

Alive!

The piñata issue was another tipping point for me - the two page (?) article in the Awake spoke warmly about the 'light hearted' tradition of Piñata.

It's religious and pagan origins and associations were dumbed down in the article - a quick google search and a different picture emerged of its history.

So inconsistent it's not funny.

It occurred to me that this was a compromise to the fast growing numbers of studies and converts from cultures where the Piñata is an entrenched tradition.....

Toasting is Pagan - How many contradictions can fit in 2 pages, I found 5?