by UBM101 28 Replies latest social humour
In the congregation of my youth, it was common knowledge that not everyone who partook of the emblems was "counted" as being of the anointed. I assume this is still the case.
So if you are a visitor or a JW but judged as not being of the anointed by the elders, yet you partook of the emblems, you would not be counted.
Others comments over the years suggest the elders in my congregation were not unique in their exclusion criteria.
djeggnog wrote:
d wrote: What does any of what I said about Armageddon have to do with the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses? Your Splaine comment means what about Armageddon were he to die? There is no timeline; no one knows the day and hour, so your rambling aside, why does it matter to you what Jehovah's Witnesses believe about Armageddon?
@waton8 wrote:
The timeline published has everything to do with the GB. David had his chart. according to wt publications, the anointed will not survive the onset of the GT. be gone by Armageddon, they will have to, to fight in it, as bible-predicted. Were David to die, it would [leave] Linda a widow, a [classy] lady. WT Armageddon teachings matter to me, because I was duped to teach falsehoods about it, and too much collateral damage is predicted about it, with precision strikes like passover in Egypt claimed as possible. angelically.
How were you duped to teach falsehoods about Armageddon? If there was a time since you've been adult when you believed something to be true, something that upon being presented with convincing evidence to the contrary you no longer believe to be true, how were you deceived? I suppose you would claim that you were "duped" as a child by school teachers into believing, right on into your adult years, for example, that Pluto was a planet until August 23, 2006, when the IAU (International Astronomical Union) decidedly voted in the Prague to strip Pluto of its status as a planet.
For some 76 years—from February 18, 1930, until August 23, 2006—school teachers were complicit around the globe for teaching what could be described as a falsehood about Pluto's being the ninth planet in our solar system.
Do you also feel as if these school teachers lied to you, misled you, deceived you and made you their dupe with regard to Pluto, making you as guilty as they are in lying, misleading and deceiving others to believe Pluto was a planet until this view of its status changed, even as Jehovah's Witnesses had speculated for some 60 years about the generation that would contemporaries of the composite sign would not pass away until Armageddon comes has changed with respect to Jesus' use of the word "generation" at Matt. 25:34, making you guilty of lying, misleading and deceiving others into believing that what Jesus had in mind was the generation living in 1914?
What "collateral damage" was involved in your making an adjustment in what you've called here "WT Armageddon teachings" when our understanding of the word "generation" changed? Was it the same "collateral damage" that was involved when the world made an adjustment in their view of Pluto when it was stripped by the IAU of its status as a planet?
Do you perhaps feel a "prediction" was made by the IAU on February 18, 1930, about Pluto, so that whatever the criteria for recognition of a planet as such may be, teachers ought not to have abandoned the falsehood they inaccurately taught for some 76 years about Pluto? Do you feel a prediction was made by Jehovah's Witnesses about Armageddon so that whatever their current understanding of what Jesus implied at Matt. 24:34, they ought not to abandon the falsehood they inaccurately taught for 60 years what they had speculated about the 1914 generation? If you answer "yes" to either question, how do you conclude this to have been a prediction? Moreover, how does the adjustment that Jehovah's Witnesses made in 2010 relate to what occurred on the Passover, which preceded the exodus of God's people from Egypt?
Again, the change in "definition" for "generation" was made after 80 years came and went. It was made out of necessity. The change in definition does not take away from the fact that what was taught up until the time of that change was indeed false.
Between February 18, 1930, and August 23, 2006, school teachers worldwide were teaching that Pluto was the ninth planet in our solar system. Would you say that this a case of false teaching on the part of these teachers during this period in view of what occurred some 76 years on August 23, 2006, when the IAU (International Astronomical Union) vote in the Prague stripped Pluto of its status as a planet? If not, then would you say that after August 23, 2006, that Pluto should still be regarded as a planet? If so, how can you expect these teachers to know before August 23, 2006, that Pluto wasn't a planet?
The point I'm making here (in the event you just don't get it) is that Jehovah's Witnesses cannot possibly know in advance things that they do not know, and even though we may have speculated as to the meaning of "this generation" at Matthew 24:34, so what? Now we know what "this generation" does not mean, but this does not mean, and should not mean, that we ignore these words and stop trying to figure out what Jesus had in mind when he used these words.
Not many Jehovah's Witnesses today are aware that we had speculated almost 60 years before this Watchtower article appeared in 2010 that Jesus may have been referring to his anointed followers as contemporaries of the sign, whose lives may overlap during the generation of the sign that began in 1914. With this understanding, there is no reason that anyone should be attempting to force two, three or even four generations into becoming a single generation since Jesus specifically spoke of "this generation," which is only one generation, the one that began in 1914 and ends with the great tribulation.
Those of Jesus' spiritual "brothers" that were alive contemporaneous with the "sign" that were born or became manifest in 1914 would correspond to those that became contemporaries of Joseph at his birth, these contemporaries including not only Joseph's 11 brothers, but to Joseph's two sons that were alive when Joseph died, they being "all that generation" (Exo. 1:6). Thus, these contemporaries of Joseph's generation would correspond in a similar fashion to Jesus' anointed brothers, who from 1914 until now were all contemporaries of the sign as all of them could bear witness to the composite sign that became manifest in 1914.
This is what our latest understanding of Jesus' words at Matt. 24:34 is today. You don't have to agree with us; Christendom doesn't agree with us either and could hardly care what it is we think Jesus' words to mean. If you are not one of Jehovah's Witnesses, when why should you care what we think Jesus' words to mean?
If anything that Jehovah's Witness are teaching today turns out to not be the same thing that we teach 20 years from now, then what we are teaching right now cannot be the truth, but we know this. For many years, there were teachers that taught kids in school that Pluto was a planet, and after 76 years of teaching that Pluto was a planet, it turned out that Pluto was not a planet, so what these teachers had taught for 76 years wasn't the truth, even though every one of them believed Pluto to have been the ninth planet in our solar system.
Just as these teachers got over it, likewise, when Jehovah's Witnesses learn that something that they are teaching today is in error, you can be sure that 20 years from now, they will have made an adjustment in not teaching that error since we have no problem admitting when we are wrong. We got over the fact that we understood "this generation" to mean one thing in 1995, and something else in 2008 when an adjustment was made in our understanding, and then again in 2010 when another adjustment was made.
It was discerned in 2010 that the anointed would be contemporaries of the generation whose lives would overlap the lives of those that would see the beginning of the composite sign and those that would see the end, including the great tribulation. We got over it, and those that didn't get it, either didn't or didn't care. For the most part, it is only those that are former Jehovah's Witnesses for whom this change in 2010 is such a problem, but these folks are as silly to be concerned about what we do as you would be if you were to be concerned about what a Girl's Scout troop in your city to which you never belonged is doing to up the sale of cookies. It's none of your business what we teach in this regard, and you really should take the position of the Catholics and the Baptists and the Lutherans and don't pay Jehovah's Witnesses any mind.
@djeggnog wrote:
d wrote: What "Rapture"? There will be no Rapture,
@waton8 wrote:
"jws hate using precise terms if they can distinguish from BTG, common wording, so: "called to their reward", gathered to heaven. instant 1st resurrection at death. better?
No; the Bible doesn't support the doctrine of the Rapture. This doesn't mean you cannot suggest otherwise. 😊
@djeggnog wrote:
d wrote: Why 2075? ls this a joke? ---
@waton8 wrote:
Of course the overlapping generation is a joke, and David said that there probably are longer living anointed than Freddy Franz. FF "served" from before 1914 to 1992. > 78 years. add that to 1992 ( another freddy-like partaker overlapping),- gives you > 2070. allowing time for the departure (rapture), longer lives, and the GT prelude, that gives you the 2075 estimate. a nice anniversary for another wt failure.I
Look: The point I'm making here (in the event you just don't get it) is that Jehovah's Witnesses cannot possibly know in advance things that they do not know, and even though we did speculate in the past what Jesus meant at Matt. 24:34 by this generation," so what? We now know what "this generation" does NOT mean, but this doesn't mean, and, in my opinion, shouldn't mean, that we ignore these words and stop trying to figure out what Jesus had in mind when he used them.
Not many Jehovah's Witnesses today are aware that we had speculated almost 60 years before this Watchtower article appeared in 2010 that Jesus may have been referring to his anointed followers as contemporaries of the sign, whose lives may overlap during the generation of the sign that began in 1914. With this understanding, there is no reason that anyone should be attempting to force two, three or even four generations into becoming a single generation since Jesus specifically spoke of "this generation," as in ONE generation, which is the one that we believe began in 1914 and ends with the great tribulation.
Those of Jesus' spiritual "brothers" that were alive contemporaneous with the "sign" that were born or became manifest in 1914 would correspond to those that became contemporaries of Joseph at his birth, these contemporaries including not only Joseph's 11 brothers, but to Joseph's two sons that were alive when Joseph died, they being "all that generation" (Exodus 1:6). Thus, these contemporaries of Joseph's generation would correspond in a similar fashion to Jesus' anointed brothers, who from 1914 until now were all contemporaries of the sign as all of them could bear witness to the composite sign that became manifest in 1914.
This is what the latest understanding of Jesus' words at Matthew 24:34 among Jehovah's Witnessew is today. You don't have to agree with us; Christendom doesn't agree with us either and could hardly care what it is we think Jesus' words to mean. If you are not one of Jehovah's Witnesses, when why should you care what we think Jesus' words to mean, @waton8?
Just as these teachers that erroneously used "My Very Educated Mother Just Sent Us Nine Pizzas" in support of the taught the Pluto-is-the-ninth-planet-in-our-solar-system "doctrine" got over it and are now teaching "My Very Elderly Mother Just Sits Up Nights," likewise, when Jehovah's Witnesses learn that something that they are teaching today is in error, you can be sure that 20 years from now, they will have made an adjustment in not teaching that error since we have no problem admitting when we are wrong. We got over the fact that we understood "this generation" to mean one thing in 1995, and something else in 2008 when an adjustment was made in our understanding; and in 2010 we have again done so when another adjustment needed to be made.
It was discerned in 2010 that the anointed would be contemporaries of the generation whose lives would overlap the lives of those that would see the beginning of the composite sign and those that would see the end, including the great tribulation. We got over it, and those that didn't get it, either didn't or didn't care. For the most part, it is only those that are former Jehovah's Witnesses for whom this change in 2010 is such a problem, but these folks are as silly to be concerned about what we believe and teach as Jehovah's Witnesses as you would be if you were to express concerned over what a Girl's Scout troop in your city to which you either do not belong or never belonged is doing to increase the sale of their peanut butter sandwich cookies, Do-Si-Dos.
It's none of your business what Jehovah's Witnesses teach in this regard, and you really should take the position of the Catholics and the Baptists and the Lutherans and don't pay what Jehovah's Witnesses teach any mind. Our teaching on "overlapping generations" is not about two or more generations, but is about the generation that began in 1914 and their contemporaries whose lives intersected OR OVERLAPPED before Armageddon when the conclusion of this system of things will have come to an end, and you don't get a vote on what Jehovah's Witnesses teach.
Let me say here in a vernacular with which you may or may not be familiar, I'm not at all concerned with your ideas or with what you might opine on what Jehovah's Witnesses teach and so "you need to step": What things Jehovah's Witnesses teach is not your business and should not, in my opinion, be your concern, just as what things you opine and teach is none of my business. You're entitled as much as I to choose whatever it is you choose to believe and to teach others accordingly (I get it!), but what you don't get to do is upbraid me for the choices I make just as I don't come to this resource to upbraid you for your choices. I truly respect your right to believe whatever you wish.
I could jokingly tell you to "go pound sand," not disparagingly, but as an expression of my disdain for your daring to inject yourself into my prerogative as one of Jehovah's Witnesses to believe what I want. However, I would never presume to inject myself into what you believe Matt. 24:34 means for, as I've said already, you're entitled to believe whatever it is you choose to believe. Were we not using JWN (or JWC), I could just as well tell you to "go pound sand," meaning "get lost." 😊
@djeggnog wrote:
d: I believe what the Bible says in its entirety, which is my choice.
@waton8 wrote:
A choice that hopefully will not be final, because, while the bible is the basis for our discussion, it is not believable. My spirituality is beyond belief in ancient, outdated writings, that have such a tenuous connection to reality. Example: Gen 1:1 The Earth was not created at the beginning, Gen. 9: there was no flood killing all, cresting above Everest, ever. -------
Creation, is too grandiose, majestic to be explained , understood by these stale stories, kindergarten reading level
Your spirituality aside, do you reject the scientific conclusion that our universe had at some time in the past been close to a singular state of infinitely small size and infinite density? Cosmologists like Lowell and Linde regard this singularity to be an intractable problem: If the universe had a beginning, so did Planet Earth. At Job 38:4, Jehovah told Job that he "founded the earth," but the very fact that we exist on this planet defies the second law of thermodynamics. Entropy is evidence of a Creator since there is absolutely no way the highly ordered physical and biological systems in which we thrive came to exist on their own. There is manifest no decay in any of these systems because of Jehovah.
While today Mt. Everest is a 29,035 foot (8,848 meter) high mountain, it's obvious that fifteen cubits or 22 feet of flood water would have been enough to 'overwhelm the earth' (Gen. 7:19) had Everest been as tall as it is today back in 2370 BC. But what if along with the added weight of the flood waters came a shifting of the earth's crust causing new mountains to emerge and existing mountains like Everest to rise to higher heights? I only know what the Bible says that "all of the tall mountains … came to be covered" by those waters, and while you do not, I believe what the Bible says.
It sounds "looney tunes" to me that that there are some Christian denominations that believe as you do, that the world will yet witness millions of Christians floating up toward the heavens and being caught up in the sky in a rapture, which event will be accompanied by automobile accidents, train derailments and plane crashes occurring all over the world followed by the confirmation of a seven-year treaty supposedly based on Daniel 9:24-27?
@djeggnog
djeggnog wrote:
I believe what the Bible says in its entirety, which is my choice.
@waton8 wrote:
Let us test that, given your superior spirituality:
Do you believe Jesus' end time prophecies in [Matt]. 24, 25, especially 24: 34,( this generation will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled?) and 25:26? ( Goats depart into everlasting cutting off--sheep into everlasting life [at ~Armageddon]). ?
I didn't say I possessed "superior spirituality"; you are the one making such a facetious suggestion about me (for some reason); nevertheless, my answer to your question is Yes.
Since the separation of sheep from goats doesn't begin until "immediately after" the great tribulation (Matt. 24:29), and Jesus specifically stated at Matt. 24:34 'this generation would not pass away until all these things [that which Jesus mentions in Matthew 24 and 25] have occurred,' including the tribulation, then it would seem that just as Joseph's contemporaries were still living when Joseph died, then some of Jesus spiritual brothers would still be alive after the tribulation. I'll elaborate on what I mean by this in a moment, but "What will happen if someone partake the wine and bread at memorial? Should we all do that?" is the topic the OP started, the topic that prompted me to post a response in the first place, and whatever your gripes with Bible doctrine or with Jehovah's Witnesses generally, I'd appreciate it if you don't ambush me again by going off-topic as you do with this question.
The fact that the current year is now 103 years removed from the year 1914 [at this writing, the year is 2017] does not help one do any more than speculate as to the year when the end will come. For example, we arrive at the year 2024 when counting 110 years forward from 1914, for Joseph's siblings, Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim (who were born in Egypt), as well as Joseph's nephews and nieces lived during Joseph's lifetime, that is to say, during Joseph's generation, making all of them contemporaries of Joseph.
Now it would be tantamount to trying to prove Jesus wrong when he indicated that no man knows "that day or the hour" should anyone attempt to calculate the year when "the end will come" (Matt. 24:14), even were Jehovah's Witnesses to do this(!), but I believe the end will come when the good news will have been satisfactorily preached in all the earth, which is something that Jesus also indicated. Furthermore, if Jesus did know 'the day or hour,' I suppose one could wonder why he would have lied about his not knowing, but I digress.
Berating spiritual-minded members of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, as many on here do, or other Christians for doing what they can to encourage Christians to stay awake and keep them from going to sleep when they need to be vigilant with a view to prayer is evidently the preoccupation of some, but remember just as the Law appointed men having weakness as high priests (Heb. 7:28), Jehovah uses men today that are imperfect as well, who may at times have gotten it wrong and might even have said some zany things they we might wish they had not said. But I dare say that most of us here know more of what things the Bible teaches than do most people because of the work of such dedicated men and women, both past and present—including Jesus and Paul—that have been doing their best to 'keep watch over our souls.' (Heb. 13:17)
Firstly, "the term 'generation' as used by Jesus [at Matt. 24:34] refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics." (wt95 11/1, p. 17, ¶6)
Secondly, Jesus compared the generation in his day to the one in Noah's day at [Matt. 24:37-39], it seems clear that the people in Noah's generation paralleled the people in "this generation" which began when the sign of Jesus' second coming became manifest in the year 1914. (I should point out here the use of the words "this generation" as they are used at Gen. 7:1.)
Thirdly, even though we are able to determine when "this generation" began, we are still unable to calculate when "this generation" would come to an end since no one knows the "day and hour."
Having said this, should we give consideration to what Exo. 1:6 says regarding the death of Joseph, Jacob's/Israel's son, "and also all his brothers and all that generation," then based on the age at which Joseph was when he died -- 110 -- then his contemporaries would have been "all [of] his brothers" and Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, who were both living when their father died.
Now looking at the dates, Jacob at age 84 marries both Leah and Rachel in 1774 BC (after his uncle Laban does a bait and switch) so that his 11th son, Joseph, is finally born to Rachel in 1767 BC. (Rachel dies when Benjamin, Jacob's most beloved son, is born some six years later in 1761 BC.) Joseph dies in 1657 BC at the age of 110. Those of Jesus' spiritual "brothers" that were alive contemporaneous with the "sign" that became manifest in 1914 (that is, those that had undertaken a spiritual rebirth by 1914) would correspond to those that became contemporaries of Joseph at his birth, which would include not only Joseph's 11 brothers, but to Joseph's two sons and to his nephews and nieces that were alive when Joseph died, all of these being "that generation" (Exo. 1:6). Thus, these contemporaries of Joseph's generation would correspond to Jesus' anointed brothers, who from 1914 until now were all contemporaries of the composite sign, they all of them bearing witness to this "sign."
The clarification made in the article, "Holy Spirit's Role in the Outworking of Jehovah's Purpose," which might better be described as "increased light" instead of "new light," and has arguably been the cause of so much confusion is this:
[Jesus] evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end." [w10 4/15, p. 10, ¶14)]
This article states that the lives of God's anointed ones that were alive when the sign began would overlap with the lives of those who would see the start of the great tribulation, this event being also a part of the sign.
Nobody knows the "day and hour" when the end will come; Jesus even said so (Matt. 24:36). The sign has both a beginning and an end, and so "immediately after the tribulation of those days," when "this generation" will have passed away, then the end—Armageddon—will come and "the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven," for it will be at this time that everyone in the world will discern "the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matt. 24:29, 30)
In referring to the way in which the word "generation" is used at Exo. 1:6, I pointed out that Joseph's generation would have been at least 110 years, because Gen. 50:22 indicates that Joseph lived for 110 years. But because Exo. 1:6 specifically says, "and also all his brothers and all that generation," it appears to be the case that the word "generation" includes those of Joseph's siblings that survived his death who were Joseph's contemporaries. Ten of Joseph's brothers witnessed events before Joseph's birth and at least two of those brothers lived after his death. So while Joseph's contemporaries were of various ages, they were viewed as being a part of "the Joseph generation."
Joseph's third oldest brother, Levi, who was born in 1772 BC (the year of Levi's birth could be 1773 BC!) before Joseph died in 1635 BC at the age of 137, some 22 years after Joseph's death, but I cannot add the additional 22 or 23 years of Levi's life to "the Joseph generation" since Joseph died in 1657 BC. Only Joseph's contemporaries would be Levi and his other siblings and their children who are alive before Joseph's death.
I take Jesus at his word when he said that "[c]oncerning that day and hour nobody knows" and that "[we] do not know on what day [he] is coming." (Matt. 24:36, 42) To go beyond Jesus' words is pure speculation. If you are living contemporaneous with someone else, it's true that your life would overlap theirs provided you were older than this other person or you survived the death of this other person.
Let me end with this "pop culture" note: Perhaps you are familiar with what I'll call "the Michael Jackson generation," who was born on August 29, 1958. This generation could be said to have begun with Michael's eldest sibling, Rebbie (Maureen Reilette "Rebbie" Jackson) born May 29, 1950, and all nine of his siblings (including Brandon Jackson, Marlon David Jackson's twin brother who was born on March 12, 1957, but died at birth, stillborn, and his half-sister Joh'Vonnie Jackson, the daughter of Michael's father, but whose mother is not Michael's) would all of them be a part of the Michael Jackson generation although Michael died on June 25, 2009, at age 50. This generation is now 60 years in length and counting since Michael's siblings were all his contemporaries, and their lives overlapped Michael's. Not that it could happen, but were any children to be born to Michael's parents, Joseph Walter "Joe" Jackson and Katherine Esther Scruse Jackson, after June 25, 2009 -- maybe Joe has another affair and another child! -- would not overlap the Michael Jackson generation so consequently these other "siblings" would not be contemporaries of Michael.
@djeggnog
,djeggnog, thank you for that response, you are taking the issues raised seriously enough to tackle them. It will take me time to work through them item by item.
re: Your Pluto classification analogy to wt teachings.-good- a subject close to my heart, and in which I was personally involved in a radio debate. The solar system is a non-biblical message from the creator, I believe, It has been stable for ~ 4 billion years, stable enough to allow life to start and continue to develop. that means Pluto likely was in its' present orbit for a long time. That orbit is a planetary orbit, conforming to the modified* Bode sequence, Pluto being ~twice as far from Uranus as Uranus is from Saturn, Saturn being ~ twice as far Jupiter as Jupiter is from the asteroids mean, .... so, to my mind, all the quibbling about size, grandstanding, is irrelevant, Pluto is in a legitimate planetary orbit tied to the Earth=10 ratios.
Similarly, the bible data define the entities wt is playing around with, and the various changing in their nomenclature, redefining the terms like "generation", changing types, antitypes, does not effect what the bible contains on these subjects.
I started a thread on The wt being wrong from A-Z on the anointed generation. somebody added that the bible is wrong from end to beginning too. to repeat, including some answers to your reply above:
Jesus stipulated that the generation would see all these things (Math 24-25) before it passes away.
Wt writers, however, who, as you correctly mentions, can not foresee the future, have taken it upon themselves however, to predict, and publish charts showing that the generation will not survive past the end, but will end, pass away, at the start of the great tribulation. The generation (according to Jesus) at that point in time,-has still to see the attack, the Judgement of the S&Gs and Armageddon. wt is ignoring, the very parameters that Jesus set for the generation. It is way longer than wt now teaches. even eternal,
It is the "anointing" of the generation that is the fly in the wt ointment.
Genesis 1:!: The Earth was formed out of material that was forged in 3 generations of exploding stars. It could not possibly have been created at the beginning, coming directly, as you seem to imply, out of the point in time, the Big Bang. the bible, and wt interpretation thereof, is off by a factor of 3 a mere 10 billion years. a lot compared to the ~100 years they are off now.
Of course these generations of stars might have been overlapping too, earlier remnants were used and compressed in later cataclysms until you have carbon, calcium, gold. But to use the questionable antique genealogies with life spans into the hundreds of years to buttress the wt stand on the overlapping anointed, is far fetched.
stick with what David said: Frederick Franz, died 1992, after ~78 years, another like him, but perhaps married, more content, longer lived, picks up there, another ~ >80 Years, 2075, here we come , again, already calculable, using wt writings. Micheal Jackson? who is he?
The strength of wt is not their logical arguments, adhering to bible facts, but that they are able to befuddle the members and keep them in line, facts notwithstanding. regardless.
I lost faith in wt's ability to project bible truth after the "Superior Authority" error revelation. 1960s special pioneers.
Truth: If there is a planet at position 10 (Earth) there will be a body (or two) at position 388, and there is: Pluto
djeggnogg: This article states that the lives of God's anointed ones that were alive when the sign began would overlap with the lives of those who would see the start of the great tribulation, this event being also a part of the sign.
These thoughts about "lives and being alive"overlapping are news to me. In that case, if you use birth age, and not "time served as anointed" as an overlapping criteria, you would have the long lived, plus the next freddy franz over and under lappers get you to 2125, another nice anniversary.
1914+ 99 ( ff 1) = 2013, + 99, ( ff 2) = 2112, and allowing for David's astute comment of even older anointed, like the 107 year olds in wt experiences, (allow for medical advances too) 1914 + 214 = 2128.= 2125-3. , and the GtT would then be just starting, the real fireworks yet to come. so: happy anniversaries, 2075, 2125, all possible within wt data. but
The wt anointed generation is not wrong because it is too long, no, because it is too short.
I know David well, and he did not look well delivering that anointed generation chart bit. and why would he.
P.S. Oddly, wt's 1918 prediction: "Millions now living will never die" had one element of bible "truth": If these millions were considered the generation. Jesus in effect said/ment . that the generation of the second fulfillment would never die, because the benevolent "sheep" must be part of the natural generation that sees past the end, ( all these things) which includes their favourable judgement to enter everlasting life.ha ha ah.
djeggnogg: It's none of your business what Jehovah's Witnesses teach in this regard,
but it is, everyone's business. because it is wt's stated purpose to extend those teachings worldwide, and enforce them through harsh disciplinary measures, limited only by current local laws. (wt loves to influence lawmakers, and courts)
To the extent that these teachings are flawed, it is in everyone's interested to have these errors exposed. sooner rather than later. because millions of lives lived based on error, are not lives well lived and lived to their potential.
People deserve to be informed of that. or?
djeggnog wrote:
d wrote: What does any of what I said about Armageddon have to do with the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses? Your Splaine comment means what about Armageddon were he to die? There is no timeline; no one knows the day and hour, so your rambling aside, why does it matter to you what Jehovah's Witnesses believe about Armageddon?
@waton8 wrote:
,djeggnog, thank you for that response, you are taking the issues raised seriously enough to tackle them. It will take me time to work through them item by item.
You can "work through them," but I didn't join this thread to discuss any other topic than the one the OP started, so I'm really just humoring you here.
re: Your Pluto classification analogy to wt teachings.-good- a subject close to my heart, and in which I was personally involved in a radio debate. The solar system is a non-biblical message from the creator, I believe, It has been stable for ~ 4 billion years, stable enough to allow life to start and continue to develop. that means Pluto likely was in its' present orbit for a long time. That orbit is a planetary orbit, conforming to the modified* Bode sequence, Pluto being ~twice as far from Uranus as Uranus is from Saturn, Saturn being ~ twice as far Jupiter as Jupiter is from the asteroids mean, .... so, to my mind, all the quibbling about size, grandstanding, is irrelevant, Pluto is in a legitimate planetary orbit tied to the Earth=10 ratios.
What you say here has nothing to so with the Pluto analogy.
Similarly, the bible data define the entities wt is playing around with, and the various changing in their nomenclature, redefining the terms like "generation", changing types, antitypes, does not effect what the bible contains on these subjects.
I don't follow you at all; contrary to what you say here, no redefinition for any term occurred.
I started a thread on The wt being wrong from A-Z on the anointed generation. somebody added that the bible is wrong from end to beginning too. to repeat, including some answers to your reply above:
That's fine; I haven't read your thread and I don't much care that you disagree with the Watchtower society; you clearly do not know the Scriptures better than do Jehovah's Witnesses.
Jesus stipulated that the generation would see all these things ([Matt.] 24-25) before it passes away.
Wt writers, however, who, as you correctly mentions, can not foresee the future, have taken it upon themselves however, to predict, and publish charts showing that the generation will not survive past the end, but will end, pass away, at the start of the great tribulation. The generation (according to Jesus) at that point in time,-has still to see the attack, the Judgement of the S&Gs and Armageddon. wt is ignoring, the very parameters that Jesus set for the generation. It is way longer than wt now teaches. even eternal,
It is the "anointing" of the generation that is the fly in the wt ointment.
I do not follow you here, and you seem to have a mistaken view of matters.
Genesis [1:1]: The Earth was formed out of material that was forged in 3 generations of exploding stars. It could not possibly have been created at the beginning, coming directly, as you seem to imply, out of the point in time, the Big Bang. the bible, and wt interpretation thereof, is off by a factor of 3 a mere 10 billion years. a lot compared to the ~100 years they are off now.
Of course these generations of stars might have been overlapping too, earlier remnants were used and compressed in later cataclysms until you have carbon, calcium, gold. But to use the questionable antique genealogies with life spans into the hundreds of years to buttress the wt stand on the overlapping anointed, is far fetched.
stick with what David said: Frederick Franz, died 1992, after ~78 years, another like him, but perhaps married, more content, longer lived, picks up there, another ~ >80 Years, 2075, here we come , again, already calculable, using wt writings. Micheal Jackson? who is he?
Forget about Jackson; that was I suppose an awful analogy for someone like yourself that is totally unfamiliar with "pop culture" and Splaine and Franz are irrelevant to this discussion. I don't believe in the Big Bang hypothesis. I only asked if you "[rejected] the scientific conclusion that our universe had at some time in the past been close to a singular state of infinitely small size and infinite density" because you said "[t]he Earth was not created at the beginning," but it seems you reject both what Gen. 1:1 says as well as the conclusions of cosmologists like Lowell and Linde (with respect to singularity).
I'm not a cosmologist, an astrophysicist or even a physicist, but I view the conclusions about fluctuations following the Big Bang, quantum field gravity and the hypothetical inflaton particle as science fiction based entirely on speculation. There has not as yet been devised a testable and falsifiable hypothesis for the Big Bang, as, say, for the first law of thermodynamics that relates to the conservation of energy (E=mc²), which is to say that the Big Bang is, at best, a theory and not a scientific law. Newton's work gave us the laws of motion, Mendel's work on genetics gave us the law of inheritance, Einstein's work gave us the theory of relativity, Watson and Crick's work gave us DNA's double helix, and I trust the science, but the Big Bang still has no one to sponsor it. You see, if the Big Bang formed space-time, there there can not have been a "before," could it?
The strength of wt is not their logical arguments, adhering to bible facts, but that they are able to befuddle the members and keep them in line, facts notwithstanding. regardless.
I lost faith in wt's ability to project bible truth after the "Superior Authority" error revelation. 1960s special pioneers.
'The strength of the Watchtower Society'? I notice you aren't responding to my post; how you view the Society is irrelevant to me. You do not seem to me to have an understanding of the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses with respect to the very question you raised with respect to the generation of 1914, but here's the skinny: The generation of the sign began with those of Jesus' anointed brothers that lived through the period when the sign was first observed (in 1914) and ends at Armageddon when the last of Jesus' followers will have died. Just as Joseph's father (Jacob/Israel) and his sons (Joseph's siblings) and his other relatives were Joseph's contemporaries during his generation, all of Jesus' anointed followers that lived through this period were all contemporaries of the generation of the sign.
Truth: If there is a planet at position 10 (Earth) there will be a body (or two) at position 388, and there is: Pluto
I don't follow you and I'm going to be taking my leave after the very next post; I used that Pluto analogy to make a point. Since this thread has gone off the proverbial rails and you have largely been incoherent.
@djeggnog
djeggnog wrote:
This article states that the lives of God's anointed ones that were alive when the sign began would overlap with the lives of those who would see the start of the great tribulation, this event being also a part of the sign.
@waton8 wrote:
These thoughts about "lives and being alive"overlapping are news to me. In that case, if you use birth age, and not "time served as anointed" as an overlapping criteria, you would have the long lived, plus the next freddy franz over and under lappers get you to 2125, another nice anniversary.
1914+ 99 ( ff 1) = 2013, + 99, ( ff 2) = 2112, and allowing for David's astute comment of even older anointed, like the 107 year olds in wt experiences, (allow for medical advances too) 1914 + 214 = 2128.= 2125-3. , and the GtT would then be just starting, the real fireworks yet to come. so: happy anniversaries, 2075, 2125, all possible within wt data. but
The wt anointed generation is not wrong because it is too long, no, because it is too short.
I know David well, and he did not look well delivering that anointed generation chart bit. and why would he.
You're not making any sense to me; in fact, you're rambling.
P.S. Oddly, wt's 1918 prediction: "Millions now living will never die" had one element of bible "truth": If these millions were considered the generation. Jesus in effect said/ment . that the generation of the second fulfillment would never die, because the benevolent "sheep" must be part of the natural generation that sees past the end, ( all these things) which includes their favourable judgement to enter everlasting life.ha ha ah.
I disagree with you; the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society did not make and could not have made a prediction in 1918; the Society is a publishing corporation that publishes many Bible translations as well as Bible-based literature that Jehovah's Witnesses distribute. The Society itself as an entity doesn't preach anything to anyone; it is Jehovah's Witnesses that do the preaching.
What is true is that many of Jehovah's Witnesses began to speculate in the late 1960s as to when the Thousand-Year Reign of Christ Jesus would likely begin based on the fact that by the year 1975, some 6,000 years will have passed since Adam's creation, but if any prediction was made, as you suggest, nothing in the literature published in the Society went as far as did some among Jehovah's Witnesses went in suggesting that 1975 would likely be when the present system of things would come to an end.
@djeggnog
d: I disagree with you; the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society did not make and could not have made a prediction in 1918
D: you are either blinded, or perhaps deliberately lie, distort/ obfuscate the truth about wtbts inc's past, Its' directors' past. . For the record, open the proclaimers book page 426. You have not dealt with any of the facts raised because you know , on all these subjects you are sunk. particularly the partaking issue that started it all.
