Truth, Justice, and the American Way

by D8TA 85 Replies latest social current

  • Simon
    Simon

    One other thing I've noticed.

    Certain republicans seem to oppose anything that democrats do and have an ideological opposition to things. I think they then assume that anyone who opposes what they do is doing so for the same reasons.

    This isnt the case.

    I didn't support the war, not because I'm a democrat (which I'm not) but because I thought it was the wrong thing to do for reasons which had been dishonestly stated and manipulated. Disagreeing with the USA does *not* make one a communist, a leftie, a muslim or any other convenient class that people want to label with. It just means you don't agree with what is being done!

    I would have frankly been more impressed if Mr Bush had stood up and said "we made a big mistake putting Saddam in power and supporting him, supplying him with terrible weapons amd standing by while he oppressed and killed his own people ... but now we're going to put it right". As it is, all we got were lies and the hardline zealots who follow him then try and defend every lie to the end, even when the lies change.

    Don't ever ask me to pledge support to someone I know is lying to me.

  • sf
    sf
    Don't ever ask me to pledge support to someone I know is lying to me.

    Coming from you Simon, that's a pretty bold statement; i.e. request, demand.

    sKally

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief
    While I vote conservative, there is a need for a certain amount of "socialism" or social responsibility. Without this, the poor and less advantaged become disenfranchised from society and extreme wealth is concentrated with just a few people which can lead to corruption and more suffering for the normal workers who rely on the system being honest for their retirement etc ...

    I agree. My family has personally benefited from a certain amount of socialism - which I have absolutely no desire to remove. Indeed, universal health care, one of the left's pet projects, is something that I truly care about and want to see happen, as much for national security issues as for anything else.

    While D8TA brings up a valid point, one that has been hammered home again and again, regarding the United States frequent moral failures - one must repeat Yeru's question again, since D8TA didn't answer it. What country, given our power and position, would have a better record than us? France? Portugal? Spain? Holland? They all have long records of human rights abuses, racism, and cruelty at least as corrupt and sordid as ours. And while the reality of our self-image as the great and noble defenders of freedom is nowhere close to our perception - we desire to be that nation. I think it is that desire to be the "Knight in Shining Armor" or the "Hero Cowboy" that defines our national character. That's why weaponry is so near and dear to our hearts.

    So then, the question becomes, should the United States try to live up to its self-image of being a Hero Cowboy by intervening in other nations, try to seek redemption for our bloody and cruel past by bringing a superior form of government (democracy) to the oppressed peoples of the Middle East? Or should we give up altogether, retreat back across our oceans, close down all our foreign bases, withdraw from the U.N. (they'd rather be in Switzerland, anyway), and just give up the whole idea?

    Believe me, there is a strong instinct in almost all of the United States' peoples to just close down our borders and impose ridiculous tariffs on foreign goods and just tend to our own affairs. But the thing that gets the average American ready to cross the ocean again to die in some hellhole run by fanatic lunatics, the thing is a need to build a better world.

    I also think that you cannot fault us for things like East Timor and Cambodia - where we didn't act - and still oppose us on anti-war grounds when we DO act. The only way the United States CAN act is through military means. I suppose we could have sent a lot of protestors over to Cambodia, see how long their marches last in the absence of any military force dedicated to giving them the freedom to march.

    I think the difference between the Borg and my current patriotism is this: the Borg made a lot of promises and it didn't deliver. Nobody promised me anything in the country, but I've had a lot of good things anyway - and I feel like I owe it to the people who weren't lucky enough to be born here to give them a taste of the freedoms I love so much.

    CZAR

  • Simon
    Simon

    I think what people want is some honesty.

    Most of the 'old world' countries of Europe have bloody pasts and things to be ashamed of ... and we are ashamed of them but open about them.

    What gauls many is the hollywood or comic book "whiter than white" image that the USA likes to portray ... such as the expression "Truth, Justice and the American Way" in the topic title while carrying on abuses of power, distorting the truth and denying the legendary justice to others.

    An example is Camp Xray, Guantanamo bay ... is this a proud example of "Truth, Justice and the American Way"?

    As part of the state visit to the UK the President (or Colin Powel) said that because of the request by Mr Blair, the British Nationals held would be promised a fair trial.

    A fair trial? This is what everyone should get !!

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    Here's my most honest answer:

    I support the military efforts in Iraq because I believe that the spread of democracy is our best bulwark against terrorism, and military intervention was the most painless (not completely painless, far from it, but the best available) way to get rid of the major obstacle to democracy, ie. Saddam Hussein and the Baath Party.

    I believed in the reports of WMD in Iraq, given the available intelligence and Hussein's own history of dodging UN weapons inspectors and utilizing said weapons. Now it seems that the WMD programs were not as advanced or widespread as we'd feared. But to be fair, I believe that Bush truly believed in them when he ordered the invasion. Plus, I also know that most of the WMD intelligence we've collected since the invasion is being held back for political reasons, probably to be released after the Democratic primary.

    I'm not interested in an American empire. I know I've said things, in the heat of the moment, that would indicate otherwise, but bluntly, ruling over other nations is a dead end prospect and one that doesn't appeal to me. They cost too much to maintain and wind up rebelling in the end anyway.

    Finally, I am grateful to the British and Australians who sent their troops in with us, helped us when we needed it. Any American who says that we didn't need you is an ass.

    CZAR

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism
    Finally, I am grateful to the British and Australians who sent their troops in with us, helped us when we needed it. Any American who says that we didn't need you is an ass.

    Hear, hear. Mr. Blair's action in joining the U.S. may have been political suicide. Whether you agree with him or not, he must have been acting on principle to take such an unpopular step, and I think that deserves respect.

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim
    How about the 3 million dead Vietnamese? What about the mass-slaughter in East Timor -- which also numbered into the millions -- in the 1970's which the US turned a blind eye to (and even funded!!) ? Not to mention practically the whole of South America....(Nicaragua, Haiti.....and so on). Sweat shops around the globe owned by US corporations -- the government couldn't care less.

    Just the tip of the iceburg.

    Please. Yeru, you are amazing

    Why not lay the blame for that at the door step of the Soviet Union?. The US was honoring a treaty obligation. We exploited the Vietnamese? In what way? Remember too that most of those Vietnamese were killed by other Vietnamese...the same ones who committed most of the atrocities there.

    Damned if we do, damned if we don't...now the US is the bad guy in your eyes because we didn't intervene in East Timor....umm and Nicaragua is now a democracy (thanks USA) Haiti...is a mess. There are also sweat shops around the world owned by Corporations in other countries...but name a few of the US owned ones...and are they sweat shops...or just taking advantage of cheap labor...This is probably your strongest arguement.

    But again I ask...WHO IN THE WORLD IS DOING A BETTER JOB THAN THE US?

  • Simon
    Simon

    Well, Norway is trying to broker peace in 9 wars while not being involved in any. There you go, one ... of the top of my head.

    There are lots of countries that I think you have a less than honerable record with. How about Chile for an example.

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    Yeru,

    Forget it. I don't wish to discuss things with you as that is about as pointless as trying to convince a JW that they don't have the truth. Utterly futile. Have a nice day.

    B.

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    yerusylaim said Let's talk...I think we can all agree that the US is not perfect. After admitting that in my own heart...I want you to point out to me one single country that does it better! If the United States receives an "F" in world relations...who has a better score...and what is your criteria for that judgement?

    Well no point arguing with me either because I agree with yeru -- if I am blind and ignorant then I am glad to be and proud to be Logansrun

    SO MY QUESTION -- WHICH IS ALSO YERUS --- Which country should the US emulate? Who does it better -- who has ascore higher than F

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