Remember when HITTING A WOMAN was just WRONG!

by pistolpete 47 Replies latest social current

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    What if the transgender person no longer has testes, but has a vulva, labia, and a vagina, and is taking female sex hormones (including estrogen) on a regular basis (in order to be womanly as much as is possible)? Wouldn't the dosage appropriate for genetic females be more appropriate for that person than the dosage for men who never became transgender? Furthermore, what if the genetic male had become transgender (to the extent mentioned above) before entering puberty?

    What about non-transgender men who have received organ transplants (such as a heart, liver, and kidneys) from genetic women (perhaps from their sister) and are thus now partly genetically women?

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    Does that treatment change the XY chromosomes?

  • adjusted knowledge
    adjusted knowledge

    "What about non-transgender men who have received organ transplants (such as a heart, liver, and kidneys) from genetic women (perhaps from their sister) and are thus now partly genetically women?"

    What is non-transgender men?

    you mean men?

    Wow, you actually wrote this and are serious? A man who receives any transplant from a female doesn't make them "partly genetically women". In fact to even have that organ function in their body they have to take immunosuppressive drugs for life because the body views it as a foreign entity.

    In fact even with transplants gender matters. A male has a 22% higher chance of rejecting a kidney transplant from a woman than receiving one from a man. Additionally men who received heart transplant from women had an increase 13% higher chance of rejection compared to receiving it from man. Lastly, the death rate was higher for men receiving kidney, heart, and liver transplant from women.

    "Researcher Martin Zeier, MD, of the department of internal medicine at the University of Heidelberg in Germany and colleagues say that sex differences related to how the immune system responds to a transplant may explain the findings. Previous research has suggested that women mount a much stronger immune response to transplanted organs than men."

    Journal of the American Society of Nephrology, October Issue 2002

    A biological male and female are determined by genetics not if they have a "vulva, labia, and a vagina". It is determined by the actual genetic code within their cells, which impacts protein production, enzymes, hormones, etc.

    I think delusional JW is a more fitting name.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    I said "non-transgender men" to make clear I was not talking about people who were born born female but later became transgender men.

    I said '"partly genetically women" since in my example the transplanted organs are genetically that of women, and that as a result the man who received them is now to some degree a chimera. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics) . Likewise, some people are there own twin, sometimes even their own fraternal twin (the two egg cells early during development fused into into organism.

    Isn't the main function of the Y chromosome to produce male hormones, and if the person no longer has testes and is now taking female hormones regularly, doesn't that negate much of the operation of the Y chromosome in that person?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_vestigiality says "In regards to genitourinary development, both internal and external genitalia of male and female fetuses have the ability to fully or partially form their analogous phenotype of the opposite biological sex if exposed to a lack/overabundance of androgens or the SRY gene during fetal development.[46][47] "

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    Whatever set of chromosomes a person has when they are born cannot be changed. This is because chromosomes are in all the cells that make up our bodies.

    To change a person’s chromosomes would mean changing trillion of cells! There aren’t any technology (and probably won’t be in the future) that can change a chromosome in all of a person’s cells.

    From 'Understanding Genetics'

    Understanding Genetics

    Stanford at the Tech Museum Understanding Genetics

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    punko..., I did not say the chromosomes could be changed. I said "negate much of the operation of the Y chromosome", meaning "neutralize much of the effect of the operation of the Y chromosome".

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    @Disillusioned JW - you're minimising the role and importance of sex chromosomes.

    Fertile human females have XX chromosomes. A trans-woman can never have a baby.

    Fertile human males have at least one Y chromosome. A trans-man can never father a child.

    These facts don't matter too much when we're talking specifically about trans women athletes wiping out the XX competition in women's sports, but they do matter when we're discussing what a woman is and what a man is, and what they've evolved to do (hint: they've evolved to f**k and have babies).

    The broader issue here is that human interaction is a two-way street. Trans women may identify as women but not everyone else will see them as that. And, really, both opinions are fine.

    I may identify as a nice guy but some people will see me as an asshole. The problem here is that trans activists are trying to force people to share their particular views, and demonise them if they dare to have a different opinion (e.g. see JK Rowling).

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Hi LoveUniHateExams. I appreciate your comments and some of the comments of some of the other people also.

    I know that fertile human females have XX chromosomes, but I think that some also have a Y chromosome in addition to those. I know some women are XXY and some scientific sources that some of them are fertile. See https://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/496996 which says "Individuals with a 47,XXY karyotype usually present with a male phenotype due to the additional Y chromosome. In this paper, we describe a 47,XXY female who was pregnant with a fetus of the same karyotype based on chromosome analysis of amniotic fluid cells." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11173857/ says "We now describe an SRY-deleted 47,XXY female who has one son and two daughters, and one of her daughters has the same 47,XXY karyotype."

    I know that fertile human males have at least one Y chromosome.

    I also know that the the Y chromosome does more than regulate the production of male hormones, for I read in scientific literature pertaining to evolution that the Y chromosome contains genetic code which is identical to a portion of the genetic code of the X chromosome. I also have read in scientific literature that some scientists think the Y chromosome evolved into existence as a mutation of an X chromosome many millions of years ago. For example see https://www.news-medical.net/health/Y-Chromosome-Evolution.aspx . Besides mentioning the evolution of that chromosome, interestingly that article says "In many ectothermic vertebrates, there are no sex chromosomes and in those who do have sex differences, gender is not determined by sex chromosomes but by the environment. In reptiles, for example, gender is selected according to the incubation temperature."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2921885/ says "Classically Y chromosomes are thought to originate from X chromosomes through a process of degeneration and gene loss." It also suggests a different possible means of evolution of the chromosome. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome which says the following.

    "The X and Y chromosomes are thought to have evolved from a pair of identical chromosomes,[10][11] termed autosomes, when an ancestral animal developed an allelic variation, a so-called "sex locus" – simply possessing this allele caused the organism to be male.[12] The chromosome with this allele became the Y chromosome, while the other member of the pair became the X chromosome. Over time, genes that were beneficial for males and harmful to (or had no effect on) females either developed on the Y chromosome or were acquired through the process of translocation.[13]

    Until recently, the X and Y chromosomes were thought to have diverged around 300 million years ago.[14] However, research published in 2010,[15] and particularly research published in 2008 documenting the sequencing of the platypus genome,[16] has suggested that the XY sex-determination system would not have been present more than 166 million years ago, at the split of the monotremes from other mammals.[17] "

    There probably are some functions of the X and Y chromosomes which I don't know about. I notice that adjusted knowledge said "... actual genetic code within their cells ... impacts protein production, enzymes, hormones, etc."

    I do realize that a trans-woman can not currently conceive and bear a baby, for she has no ovaries and no uterus, however some sources say that in the future it might be possible to provide them with a transplanted uterus. See https://www.mcgill.ca/channels/channels/news/fertility-frontier-can-transgender-women-get-uterus-transplants-329760 which says in part the following. "Now a new publication in the journal Bioethics makes the case that research trials should consider including transgender women in this evolving fertility frontier, not just genetic women – that is, people with XX chromosomes" regarding receiving a transplant of a uterus. It also says "While still theoretical, it appears that implantation of a donated uterus and gestation in the body of a transgender individual should pose no physiological barrier if various conditions are met, according to Balayla."

    Regarding a trans-man I know that if only his own tissues are used to give the appearance of having a penis and testes then he can not impregnate a woman, but I wonder if he can receive a transplanted penis and transplanted testes. There are numerous pictures of naked people (called he-she and she-he and transgender) on the internet that appear to have such, but I wonder if all of them are fake pictures. Perhaps in actual 'sex change' surgeries to make transgender people prostheses are used underneath the skin. A moment ago I noticed that https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/21526-gender-affirmation-confirmation-or-sex-reassignment-surgery says "If you are a transgender man (assigned female at birth or AFAB), you may have surgeries that involve:... Construction of a penis and scrotum (metoidioplasty, phalloplasty and scrotoplasty)." That seems to be cosmetic surgery and thus does not seem to give a person the ability to produce semen. However, https://www.insider.com/doctors-to-perform-worlds-first-penis-transplant-on-transgender-man-2020-10 says the following.

    "A team of Massachusetts surgeons is preparing to perform the world's first-ever penis transplant on a transgender man.

    During the procedure, surgeons would take the penis of a deceased donor and transfer it onto a transgender patient who was assigned female at birth."

    https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2019/12/surgeons-successfully-performed-testicle-transplant-procedure-help-trans-men-one-day/ says the following.

    "A 36-year-old cis man born without testicles in Belgrade, Serbia has just received a testicular transplant from his identical twin brother to help his body produce its own testosterone and sperm.

    It’s only the third such surgery ever to occur in the world, and doctors say it could eventually be applied to trans men using the removed testicles of trans women, but ethical and legal concerns could complicate the matter."

    But even if there is no way for a trans-people to currently, or ever, to produce a baby, it should be kept in mind that some genetic biological women have had their uterus, cervix, and/or ovaries removed due to having cancer in one of more of those organs, or some other severe health problem in one or more of those organs. But, they are still considered women.

    I agree that at least some "... trans activists are trying to force people to share their particular views, and demonise [sic] them if they dare to have a different opinion ...".

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    This topic was definitely a mentally (and emotionally) stimulating conversation/debate and I did learn some things in the process and I hope some people learned from me as well.

    Well, I think I have said all (or practically all) I can say on this topic, and thus I probably won't make any further posts in this topic thread, but time will tell. Have a great time folks.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Well I'm making another post in this topic after all.

    I read in a book by Michael Shermer (called Why Darwin Matters:The Case Against Intelligent Design) that men contain a vestigial uterus and that such is evidence of evolution! https://vridar.org/2009/06/16/fearfully-and-wonderfully-or-tearfully-and-clumsily-made/ contains a quote about that from the book.The quote about the male vestigial uterus says “Men have the remnant of an undeveloped female reproductive organ that hangs off the prostrate gland for the same reason.”

    In looking for more sources pertaining to that I found the article at https://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/news/a36344/man-discovers-he-has-a-working-womb-and-uterus/ . I recommend that people read it. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostatic_utricle which says the following.

    'The prostatic utricle (Latin for "pouch of the prostate") is a small indentation in the prostatic urethra, at the apex of the urethral crest, on the seminal colliculus (verumontanum), laterally flanked by openings of the ejaculatory ducts. It is also known as the vagina masculina or uterus masculinus or (in older literature) vesicula prostatica.[1] ... The prostatic utricle is the homologue of the uterus and vagina ....'

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