I have a hard time blaming the Watchtower

by spiritwalker 132 Replies latest jw friends

  • Dansk
    Dansk
    Is it your fault for being a well-intentioned person who really believed that God's Kingdom was going to solve all the problems? When the Society grabbed you by your sympathetic "hooks" with pictures of starving children and said, "Our way is the solution to all of that," does it make you especially gullible or stupid for buying into it, even passionately?

    Excellent, Czar. Excellent! That's how the Borg caught me! I wanted my little children to be with their mum and dad free from all of that suffering and that, in the meantime, we'd help alleviate that suffering in others. Instead, I helped enmesh my two girls in it like a spider wraps its silk around a hapless victim. The Watchtower is intrinsically evil because it prays on one's compassion and has no compassion of its own. One of the major reasons I don't count myself an idiot for being gullible - and I DID once count myself an idiot - is because intelligence has nothing to do with gullibility. Look at the excellent posts of AlanF, Farkel, Hillary Step, et al., and one immediately understands this.

    Ian

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    Dansk,

    I agree. I also know that when I was a dub, there was no elder system in operation. Some of the people that I knew as witnesses were actually good kind-hearted people and still are, all the time one avoids throwing that switch that triggers off the familiar mind-closed glazed look.

    Englishman. Unglazed.

  • spiritwalker
    spiritwalker
    There are way too many people here who are not given the choice to just leave an abusive religion, that would be too easy.

    As a child we are puppets of our family control, but as adults we are free to make our own choices. If people choose not to or use excuses or fear as a reason to stay in something they no longer believe in. That is their choice and not the Witnesses. They need to take responsibility for their own actions and not blame someone else.

    Whilst things are not all black and white as they have been presented by you, by and large we have to accept some responsibility for the fact that we became JWs and lived that way of life for some period of time. ... Accepting responsibility also means we can live much happier lives too.

    Thank you. This is a lot of what I mean and why I posted it.

    I strongly object to your argument. You are arguing for personal responsibility, which I do agree with; but you are willing to ignore the concept of CORPORATE responsibility. If we are responsible as individuals to be smart consumers, so to speak, then corporations should not be exempted from being good citizens; this precludes lying and misrepresenting facts to separate us from our money/support.

    If it was not for the term, "CORPORATE responsibility", their would be several lawyers out of a job. It does present something though. That some adults stepped out of the box and made choices for themselves and found that what they thought, is not the truth. It does show, to some degree, people making personal choices. However, they are sueing others for choices they made in the past. The main point I have stated from the beginning. Is that we as adults have to take responsibly. Saying we were in some other mental state or that we were controlled. Is like saying we were not thinking inside in the past and now we are. Although my thought pattern was based on wrong information in the past, it was still my thoughts and actions. I choose not to research the other side of the issue and to accept what I was told. So I was responsible for my actions and accepting what would be deemed wrong behavior in others. ME ME ME, that is who did it and not someone else. I did it and I take responsibility for what I did. I am sorry that seems so hard to accept, but it is the way I see it. Now early someone said that is a hippie attitude. Yet the hippie, or liberal attitude, in society. Is normally to blame the government or want to be cared for more by the government. The conservative attitude is to want people to take personal responsibility. Although I am registered independent, I do see this view as leaning more conservative and less liberal. So it would not be a hippie attitude.

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    Spiritwalker, I agree with your post. I found it well-written and obviously had some long thought behind it. I liked the "Jane, you ignorant slut" tone of the hippy sleep refutation - almost spilled my coffee.

    You have obviously tapped into a predictably strong current of resentment on the board. Most people, out in the real world and on this board, seem to equate responsibility with blame and fault, as something to feel guilty about.

    Is it my fault that the WTS lied to me? No. Am I an adult who is responsible for what I choose to believe, do, and accept? Yes, I am.

    As a child, was it my fault if I believe what I am taught? No, it's not. Am I as an adult responsible for what I choose to believe, do, and accept, regardless of what I am taught as a child? Yes, I am.

    The usual response to this is "mind control, mind control". See http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/56901/1.ashx and others.

    To act as if being an adult JW was not a conscious choice is to deny your capability of making responsible, conscious choices - it makes you into a victim. You made a choice, you changed your mind, you made a new choice - all the rest is a story in the past. Many XJW's would rather have been victims of "mind control" that accept the demonstrable fact that as adults, they once accepted a belief system that they today reject.

    <PS now does his best baby seal impression as crowd approaches with cudgels>

  • Sentinel
    Sentinel

    Spiritwalker: Thanks for a wonderful post. I think I understand what you are trying to say, in that the bottom line is, WE, our own personal SELF are the only ones who can fix something that has gotten messed up in our perception of life and belief structures. Once we figure out that we are on the wrong road, we need to get off that road and CHANGE ourselves. It is never too late to do this.

    We can talk till we're blue in the face, we can search the internet, we can read, we can try to put the blame for our PRESENT state on someone or something else. But the truth is, there is no pill to take, there is no person who can heal us and we cannot continue to put the blame for OUR life course on another. As much as it might hurt, we have to get strong, accept help and solutions and apply remedies as necessary, without feeling that we have no control over our life. The only thing we can't control, is what someone else does or doesn't do. I share your frustration there, but then again, we have to get unstuck.

    Young children and young adults are at the mercy of those guiding them as they grow up; but upon maturity, they do have the option to change their life--and they do it all the time. That is the struggle of man in his element.

    Life isn't easy. We make decisions every day and we do so with the facts we have at hand. If we find we've been misled, then we change what we can about ourselves and our perceptions and move forward. We cannot change anyone else. We cannot change the religion who's teaching are now found to be untrue by our hearts, because they are granted the same freedoms that we have. It's true we are in a very modern age, but people still get killed and murdered and suffer great abuse because of their religious beliefs. Yet, no one has forced the believer to die for their faith--it is always their choice. Whether we have been coerced, brain-washed, or mentally abused, especially in the area of RELIGION, it would have to be a sect that also goes against the government and does not fit in with society in any way, before anyone would try to take them to task as a group.

    If children are being physically and sexually abused and this is the nature of the religious teachings, then yes, someone is wrong; but even in the JW faith, they do not teach the physical or sexual abuse of the young. I know it to be true, that some are more fanatical than others and much more strict, but again, this is more the individual parent or family structure, and NOT a teaching. If there is legal remedy, it can and should be sought; otherwise, we need to move on and let them go.Whoever they might be--fathers, uncles, teachers, brothers of faith, or mothers, aunts, teachers, sisters of faith, they have no right to physically or sexual abuse anyone.

    There are many, many loving and sincere people still sitting in Kingdom Halls all over the world. They are guided by very strict rules and dogma, but were it not that most all agree to follow these precepts, there is no reason for the ones making those rules to change anything. They continue to have a very strong following. For the most part, they are considered to be honest and trustworthy as a group. Most everyone will agree that it is sad that they are so "sincerely wrong". And so sad that they have caused divisions in families and loved ones over their belief system.

    And yes, it is difficult when one makes a change and this change is regarded as apostate. This is their own fear showing through. We have to be true to our own mind and heart and sometimes if we are always thinking "what if" or "why me?" we willl never get over the past and never be as free as we could be, to move on, without the weights of religious doom and gloom. They have no power over us unless we allow them to have that power. And, who is to blame if we ourselves allow them this power? We would find ourselves at the mercy of anyone coming and going, with any type of deceptive invitation or suggestion.

    And mind control....I'm sorry, but we do have choices. We aren't simply being led around like a bunch of zombies, or else this world would be in a much worse state than it is right now. We are lured and enticed, true, but the bottom line decision is ours, whether it be boozing, smoking or drugs, sex....whatever. If we cannot control ourselves, then someone else will see that and put us in a mental institution or hospital or jail for treatment or punnishment. That is not having control in my opinion. As much as we might hate to admit it, the disallusion, the fear, the guilt, are all things that we "accepted". That's where you get that monkey off your back!

    Most of us have had some really bad and sad experiences within the walls of the borg, and that is very unfortunate. But, would we be where we are here and now, if it had not been for this experience? The domino affect seems ever present. But, how are we to get past all of this and live happier lives if we keep dwelling on things that cannot be changed and trying to blame others. If you have a problem with a certain individual, make an effort to go to them and get it resolved. If the problem has legal remedy, do what you have to do. Otherwise, we have to face that we are in a different place now, and we took a path that didn't lead us where we thought it would, so now we take a new path. We still might change to an even newer path. It's our own choice. If you perceive that you are unacceptable, than you will feel and act that way without any input from anyone else.

    Facing myself and being accountable for my life has empowered me. I am no longer in that hopeless, hapless place.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    The McDonalds lawsuit analogy is tired.

    Simple fact: if McDonalds was making a practice of heating their coffee to a point that would actually injure people (and they were), then McDonalds needed to be forced to stop that practice.

    Bitch about the amount if you want, but not the logic of punishing dangerous behaviour.

    Notice the differences in these two exclaims:

    Mmmm, mmm, that's a nice hot cup a coffee on a cold day!

    ****k! Jesus Christ, that coffee burned me!!!!

    It's a matter of degrees, and it doesn't take a degree to understand the difference between "hot" and "too hot for human skin".

  • Rick Aust
    Rick Aust

    I can see where your coming from spirtwalker but I don't agree with you.

    I wasn't raised as a JW, I come in by the door to door work, based on what I was taught I decided to get batised. But a person can only make a decision based on the information presented to him at the time, only much later did I found out that Charles Russel got 1914 from the pyramids and not from the bible.

    As far as the Bible education work that they do, is it education or propaganda? Education teaches you HOW to think Propaganda teaches you WHAT to think. During the Watchtower meetings, we are expected to answer up, to answer in our own words but not our own thoughts so really its not Education its Propaganda.

    Their 'Policy' on Blood is also false, I call it a "Policy" I can't call it a "belief" because I am confident that the WTS is aware of the holes in it, but they allow others to die for what the WTS continues to teach them.

    In all my years as a JW I never heard of any one rasiing their hands up and saying "I disagree with this paragraph in the Watchtower", we are all expected to just repeat the answer that has being given to us.

    If you blame yourself spiritwalker then it only shows what a good job they have done with "mind-control"

    Regards rick

  • sunshineToo
    sunshineToo

    One thing you have to remember s.walker is that a witness is not allowed to sue either the Watchtower Society or fellow witnesses.

    Suppose you sold your business and house to pioneer because the society said the Armageddon was coming last year. The Watchtower's reasoning is: " Too bad! It is your fault to listen and acted upon it, not the society's fault."

    Suppose you didn't go to college to pioneer because that was what you were told at the assembly and by the megazines. Suppose you can't find a decent job and are struggling financially. Their reasoning: "Too bad. It is your fault that you listened and acted upon it."

    I can go on and on. They find any little flaw in other religions and make it look serious. But for their serious mistakes, you are supposed to ignore. What a !@#$% &*!!!!!!!!!

  • Sassy
    Sassy
    The main point I have stated from the beginning. Is that we as adults have to take responsibly.

    but what about those of us who were force fed as a babe. Babtized before we were old enough to know consequences that if we left this religion later because we found disolution in it, that we would forever be treated as with leprasy by its members including our own immediate family? I have a hard time blaming a child who is only in junior high school. Yet look how they push for youth to baptise early. My own sister was baptised at 12 and a brother attempted rape on her at 14, she fell apart and was harrased by the elders and treated like a criminal and finally dfd because she couldn't handle all the meetings and walked out of them. So dfd at 14, not old enough to make life decision and forever she has no mother, because this faith says so.

    I'm sorry. I would never sue this org even if I could. You really can't put a dollar value on it. I do find good points here in this thread but I also think there is some accountability the WTS has for which we have a right to blame them, even if it is only in our hearts.

    No one says that because we do blame them for things, that we don't also hold accountability as well. But they are far from innocent.

    ~~Sassy~~

  • rocketman
    rocketman

    Very good points being made on both "sides" of this discussion - which has taken place here before.

    I liked the points that were made about the type of 'corporate responsibilty' that does indeed flow from the top. And yes, governments do have laws and regulations in place so that unsuspecting people are by law entitled to truthfulness when buying a product.

    To me one major point is this: upon making a decision to leave the jw religion (assuming a person is now an adult and thus needs to take responsibilt for their own actions) what is the price that must be paid for leaving? In this case, it's quite likely a dear price that must be paid - being shunned, losing family and friends. That's a heck of a steep price to pay for supposedly "freely" choosing to leave.

    The WTS says that anyone is free to decide to join and leave the religion. They argue this routinely, especially when questioned by human rights organizations and governments. But when the price of leaving is so high, I must wonder if the decision is one that can be freely made.

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