I have a hard time blaming the Watchtower

by spiritwalker 132 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Phantom Stranger

  If you are not taking responsibility for your actions as an adult, then victim is the mantle you are assuming.

  Mafioso? There are events where our survival is threatened, and there are events where we feel as if it is, and it's really not. This is a perfect example of a limiting belief.

  A kid grows up learning how to read before kindergarten. By first grade, she is treated as a prodigy. She is skipped past second grade, and goes directly to third. A combination of a poor teacher and problems at home result in her not doing well in the third grade, and she is held back to repeat third grade, and all the kids she passed catch up with her. She adopts a two-pronged attitude - she works hard to show that she's smart, because "smart" is her identity, it's become the thing that makes her special, and to abandon that feels like losing her identity. But she doesn't trust the school system any more, because of how the whole thing went down - she feels as if they are telling her she's not really smart - they are trying to take away her identity. So all through school, she really doesn't care what her grades are, but she takes tests very seriously, she argues with teachers, she engages in academic extracurricular activities and wins statewide awards - all to prove that she's smart and show them that she won't play their game. This is not a conscious agenda - but it's very obvious to everyone but her.

  She doesn't go to college - she could have, but her beliefs get in the way. So she enters the world of work and advances far, eventually owning her own business. And somewhere along the way, she realizes that the confrontive, smart-assed behavior that feels like it keeps her safe, is really holding her back. It's limiting her relationships, her effectiveness, her results. And she's been engaging in it to feel smart, but she realizes that evidence doesn't make you feel smart - your decisions about yourself do.

  Now, that person was able to make that shift at any time as an adult. She didn't make it until she was 29 years old. Holding her capable of making the change while at the same time treating her with compassion was all it took for her to feel strong enough to change her mind. To treat her as a victim who couldn't operate any differently, who was incapable, would have demeaned her - but it wouldn't have supported her in changing any faster.

  The ability is within us, whether we use it or not. It's kind of like the ability to make a million dollars. There are no physical attributes or psychic powers that millionaires have that we don't have. So if we don't make a million dollars, is it because we were uncapable, or is it because we didn't want to, or is it because we didn't believe we could? Or is it because there is a vast conspiracy oppressing us?

  Believing in the victim thing gives us a great way to escape responsibility for having been adult witnesses. If we have the habit of beating ourselves up for "mistakes", the concept probably makes us sick to contemplate. Well, beating yourself up for "mistakes" is kinda useless and self-defeating, so don't use that behavior as a defining moment. Does a victim attitude serve us in being as effective as possible from here on out? Doesn't the concept of victimhood bring a feeling of helplessness? If you take on the concept that you can change your mind without having to have others change it for you, that you can go out and determine what to belive and when you make a mistake you can correct it - doesn't that bring a feeling of empowerment? You will be more effective in your life when you feel empowered than helpless - because you are taking on abilities you have had the entire time, but that you have not been believing in.
• 

  Lady Lee

  PS as a previous life-long victim I can say that helplessness is the defining feeling of the victim. You don't believe in choices because you never been given the opportunity for choice,

  To argue that I had the ability to choose, (even though I didn't know I had it) is useles. If I don't have the information accessible to me then I don't have the ability.

  I didn't grow up thinking I was a victim. I just thought that was the was life was, my family was and I was. Once I got into therapy I was introduced to the idea that I was a victim. And believe me I rejected that. No one really wants to wear that label.

  But taking on the label of victim was an important step for me. By saying "I am a victim" I can then choose to say "I don't want to be this anymore." As long as I thought it was normal I never considered the possiblity of change.

  But just as people don't like to take on the victim label few want to keep it. So once it has been taken on the efforts begin to get rid of it which forces one to change their ways of thinking and behaving until one is no longer a victim but a survivor.

  I refuse to live in the victim role ever again. But I embrace the survivor role. I have been through a lot and am still here.

  While I was helpless growing up and even in my marriage, I no longer am helpless. I have learned that personal power is a tool I never had - didn't even know about.

  I suspect unless someone has lived through the victim to survivor metamorphosis there is no way to really understand the differences in thinking that goes on.

  Too many walk away from one victim role and into another because they fail to examine the process and work it through
• 

  AlanF

  While you make some good points as usual, PS, you still avoid answering questions that lead in a direction that prove that some of your ideas are wrong. Let's try again:

  Answer this: Did the mafioso coerce his victim? Why or why not?

  As for victims, apparently you don't believe that true victims exist. This is evident from these comments:

  "Believing in the victim thing gives us a great way to escape responsibility for having been adult witnesses... Does a victim attitude serve us in being as effective as possible from here on out? Doesn't the concept of victimhood bring a feeling of helplessness?"

  Apparently you think that everyone is as astute as you, and you expect them to behave as astutely as you do. Well a lot of people are not that astute, and a lot of people are victims, whether you acknowledge it or not. Your comments are reminiscent of that school of sociologists who claim that cults -- high control groups -- don't exist, and that everyone who joins them does so with full knowledge and full responsibility. These people are flat out wrong, and I think you know that.

  That said, plenty of people do play the victim card, just as plenty of people play the race card or whatever card they can. It helps them avoid taking responsibility for their bad decisions, and especially to avoid doing anything to improve their present circumstances. Some of these people are just plain lazy and wouldn't do well no matter how good their circumstances were, unless everything were handed to them on a silver platter. I certainly agree with you on this point. In particular I agree with these comments:

  "If you take on the concept that you can change your mind without having to have others change it for you, that you can go out and determine what to belive and when you make a mistake you can correct it - doesn't that bring a feeling of empowerment? You will be more effective in your life when you feel empowered than helpless - because you are taking on abilities you have had the entire time, but that you have not been believing in."

  I think, PS, that you're confusing two separate things: whether victims exist, and whether victims should use their victimhood to justify remaining a victim or taking responsibility for their present circumstances.

  Well victims certainly exist, but once they know that they're victims, then they ought to do what they can to get out of their circumstances. That's why many groups exist that help victims of physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse and so on.

  This is somewhat like dealing with clinical depression. People who have no experience with it often say, "Just get up off your ass and do something!" Well it ain't that simple. Clinically depressed people have something wrong with their physiology, which affects their ability to act. It often makes it impossible for them to act -- despite the fact that people like me (and probably you) can't fully understand it. But when they get the right depression medicine, and perhaps counsel, the physical problem is alleviated and then they become much more capable of acting. The result of the physical problem is a psychological inability to act to better their circumstances. This psychological blockage is just as real as the physical problem that causes it. It's the same thing with people whose ability to act has been severely hampered by abuse, whether it be physical, psychological, sexual or spiritual. They need help to overcome it, just as a clinically depressed person needs help to get out of the pit of depression. Your extended example is barely relevant to any of this.

  I think that a very limiting factor on discussions about victimhood is the very language that victim advocates use for their advocacy, so I'll drop that for the remainder of my comments here and try to use plain language.

  I could use this victim language to say that some victims don't know that they're victims. Alternatively I could say that some people are trapped by having or seeing only bad alternatives. A physically abused woman might only see the bad choices of staying and continuing to be beaten, or leaving and probably being out on the street. She may really have other choices, such as getting help from government or private sources that give her a place to live and counsel to heal, but if she doesn't see them, they might as well not exist. Is she responsible for not seeing them? You tell me. A sexually abused child probably only sees the same choices: continuing to submit, or seeing the family split up. She might not even understand that she's being abused, but only that she hates what's happening to her. Many sexually abused children think that what's happening is perfectly normal. How is a young child supposed to understand enough about life to see beyond such bad choices, unless she's been taught about them? How does she know what's normal if she's never seen it?

  This leads me to another point: Cults like the JWs give children few choices. There's Jehovah's way and there's Satan's way. There are no alternatives. Just how do you think a child in such circumstances is supposed to learn about other ways? How are they supposed to figure out that "Jehovah's way" is merely "the Watchtower Society's way" and that "Satan's way" includes some very good choices? If you can't describe a reasonable way for this to happen, PS, then you're asking for the impossible from children. And if you can describe a way, then please go to show how a child is supposed to deal with such immensely conflicting information. And tell us how that child is supposed to act upon reaching the age of 18, or whatever age you think is that of adulthood.

  One thing I'd like to know, PS, is why you've avoided commenting on the state of children who are victims of abuse, whether it be physical, emotional, sexual or spiritual. Children in these circumstances are most certainly victims because they have so few good choices. Or do you claim that there are no such victims?

  AlanF
• 

  Phantom Stranger

  1) Children have been excluded from the very beginning of this thread - it's always been a discussion about adults.

  2) If I understand the definition of depression as a mental illness (and I am not a doctor), those suffering from depression are not able to make choices that others who are not suffering from mental illness can make. As such, by definition, they should be excluded from discussions about freedom of choice. Anyone who is medically qualifies to comment on that, please do.

  3) I responded to your point when I discussed this: Mafioso? There are events where our survival is threatened, and there are events where we feel as if it is, and it's really not.
• 

  larc

  PS, I was raised as a Witness. As a child, I did not see that there were any other options that made any sense. It was not until I was a young adult that I did any intellectual investigation. Even with that, it took me about seven years to go from total belief to total disbelief. My sister never left the religion and feels badly that I did. The only difference I see between the two of us, is that I more intellectualy adventuresome than she is. She, however, does not consider herself a victum at all, but rather, seems to be comfortable in her situation. Perhaps, a person only feels like they have been a victum after their entire wold view changes and they can look back on the experience. Do I consider myself to be a victum? No, but I have been out for 40 years. I am not sure how I would answer the question the first year out, and I got into a discussion like this. That was a long time ago.
• 

  spiritwalker

  Children have been excluded from the very beginning of this thread - it's always been a discussion about adults.

  Exactly the point I stated in the original post. As an adult and anything I did as a Witness, as a adult. I take 100% full responsibility for it all and seek no blame on the Watchtower. I did it, I accepted it and I am the one I blame for my actions. What I did as a child was something completely different and that is why I stated this in the starting post. (quoted below)

  I can not accept that argument that we can write-off everything we did as an adult to being brainwashed and mislead. There is still the inner self decided to accept it and making the actions of the outer self, what they are. Does that mean we do not feel anger or regret for our actions? Sure we do. But to say it was all the Watchtower making these choices and not us too, is kind of saying we were not even alive in the past and only alive once we left. Truly, we may be more wise and mature now, but we were still who we are then too.

  No argument is ever going to find me saying the Watchtower is to blame for everything, ever! I take full responsibility for it all accept all that that statement means. When I see people now, who I shunned then, and they seem angry with me. I accept that I did it. When I see past friends who I scorned for behavior I now accept, I accept that I did it. Plain and simple, it was me and I am not going to be like a child and say, "my sister made me do it." I grew out of that ages ago, when I became an adult.

  When does this take affect?

  I think it takes affect when your parents cut your puppet strings and allow you to be an adult. When that happens and you choose to follow a religion and not learn to think for yourself. Then you deserve the life that it goes with.
• 

  AlanF

  Phantom Stranger said:

  : 1) Children have been excluded from the very beginning of this thread - it's always been a discussion about adults.

  The fact that you and spiritwalker steadfastly refuse to deal with the fact that at some point, children become adults, doesn't mean that this thread isn't also about children. Note that, as I show below, spiritwalker most certainly did directly bring children into the picture. Both of you refuse to discuss the problem of precisely where in someone's life he or she becomes an adult. I've raised a number of pertinent questions about this that, as usual, you refuse to deal with. In fact, you failed to deal with about 95% of the points I raised. In this you're much like the JW apologists that everyone on this board is all too familiar with.

  : 2) If I understand the definition of depression as a mental illness (and I am not a doctor), those suffering from depression are not able to make choices that others who are not suffering from mental illness can make. As such, by definition, they should be excluded from discussions about freedom of choice. Anyone who is medically qualifies to comment on that, please do.

  There are several forms of depression; none that I know of are mental illnesses. Clinical depression has physical causes and results in a mind unable to cope with the ordinary things of daily life. A depressed person has trouble getting up in the morning and doing anything at all. They find the simplest of choices difficult or impossible to make -- not because of a mental deficiency, but an emotional one.

  Abuse of various kinds -- physical, emotional, sexual and spiritual -- often results in the same sort of inability to make choices as does clinical depression. Again it's not a mental deficiency, but an emotional one. A person deliberately isolated from the world has been deliberately stripped of an ability to make free and informed choices just as surely as has one suffering from clinical depression, or one threatened with physical death.

  : 3) I responded to your point when I discussed this: Mafioso? There are events where our survival is threatened, and there are events where we feel as if it is, and it's really not.

  I didn't ask for a mere response; I asked for an answer. Let's try a third time, shall we?

  Did the mafioso coerce his victim? Why or why not?

  For the record, your response was not an answer to the question because it didn't provide a clear answer to the question. It was an attempt to sidestep an answer.

  Here are some related questions:

  Do you realize that the claims you and spiritwalker make are exactly those made by Watchtower lawyers in court situations?

  Do you think that abusive cults don't exist?

  If you think that abusive cults do exist, then what effect do they have on their members' ability to make free and informed choices?

  What exactly defines an adult as opposed to a child, for purposes of making proper choices vis a vis this discussion?

  You might also try answering the many questions I've raised in previous posts.

  Spiritwalker, you're making a lot of strawman arguments and you're not thinking clearly.

  For example of unclear thinking, you concur with Phantom Stranger about this thread not being about children. Yet you yourself brought children into the picture when, in your original post, you spoke of taking on responsibility and, as you quoted above, said: "When does this take affect? I think it takes affect when your parents cut your puppet strings and allow you to be an adult. When that happens and you choose to follow a religion and not learn to think for yourself. Then you deserve the life that it goes with." The unclear thinking is obvious because you've failed to give any criteria for what it is for parents to "cut your puppet strings and allow you to be an adult". At what age does this happen? What mental state defines for a person when the strings have been cut? If all you've ever known is what a cult taught you, and that cult taught you that thinking for yourself is a grievous sin against God, then how do you "learn to think for yourself"? Remember that, for plenty of people, the strings are never cut, even for children who are elderly.

  As for strawman arguments, you said:

  : I can not accept that argument that we can write-off everything we did as an adult to being brainwashed and mislead.

  No one in this thread, or anywhere else I'm aware of, has made this argument.

  : There is still the inner self decided to accept it and making the actions of the outer self, what they are. Does that mean we do not feel anger or regret for our actions? Sure we do. But to say it was all the Watchtower making these choices and not us too, is kind of saying we were not even alive in the past and only alive once we left.

  I'm not aware of anyone who has said this. Are you?

  : No argument is ever going to find me saying the Watchtower is to blame for everything, ever!

  I don't know of anyone making that argument. Do you?

  : I take full responsibility for it all accept all that that statement means. When I see people now, who I shunned then, and they seem angry with me. I accept that I did it. When I see past friends who I scorned for behavior I now accept, I accept that I did it. Plain and simple, it was me and I am not going to be like a child and say, "my sister made me do it." I grew out of that ages ago, when I became an adult.

  Just when did you become an adult? What defined the moment in time when that happened? Were you raised a JW? If so, what made you able to throw off the cult mindset that the JWs attempted to instill in you since infancy?

  If you want to argue properly, you'll also have to deal with the facts that I and others have presented elsewhere in this thread, rather than ignoring them.

  AlanF
• 

  frenchbabyface

  Well PS

  1) Children have been excluded from the very beginning of this thread - it's always been a discussion about adults.

  2) If I understand the definition of depression as a mental illness (and I am not a doctor), those suffering from depression are not able to make choices that others who are not suffering from mental illness can make. As such, by definition, they should be excluded from discussions about freedom of choice. Anyone who is medically qualifies to comment on that, please do.

  3) I responded to your point when I discussed this: Mafioso? There are events where our survival is threatened, and there are events where we feel as if it is, and it's really not.

  Sorry but ... the title is about "having hard time blaming the watchtower !" (I'm ok if SpriritWalker is only talking about his own experience here, but that means that he is able to forget about the others ...)
  
  SpiritWalker and PS :
  The WTBS have to be blamed for those you want to exclude from the topic !(who cares about those who have no problem ... they are fine !)

  So are we gonna forget "again" about the victims, who are in a mafiosi situation ! because some others just feel good about themselves and give the WTBS a blind CHECK ?

  Now SpiritWalker : maybe the title of you topic should have been "I'm totally cured" (or my expérience wasn't that bab with the JW) did you lost a member of your familly because of blood issue or suicide ? Did one of your daughter or son have been raped by a brother ? have you been martyrized (or killed : apparently not) because of being JW in a country were it is not allowed etc ... please don't forget about the victims ... it is not because you feel good with yourself about that, that everybody can ! They've lost way to much already ... to get that cool, that easy about THAT and everything is relative nobody's got the same expérience and the same sensitivity.

  BUT SORRY THE WTBS exactly knows what she is doing ... and we are in a freaking world where organisations like this one, play the fool with people heads, hopes and fears ! That is what they have to be blamed for ! ...

  It is cool to know that you feel good anyway ... but still !
• 

  JT

  This Poster is Good :) :) :)

  - a straight black and white post always fires folks up--

  it reminds me of WT so much, always black and white--either you live or die, no circumstances taken into consideration

  and this is how this posters started out, of course in my view anyone who adopts a black and white position is often times backing themselves into a corner much like this poster has done

  first the poster took a strong unbending stand,

  then when presented with information that showed the world aint always black and white the poster had to RESTATE THIER VIEWS

  for example- we see the issue of kids, the issues of those with emotional issues,not RETARDED FOLKS BUT THOSE who may have emotional issues in thier lives, poor health, loss of loved ones, etc

  then you actually have folks who are "Adults" who would be considered as mentally retarded who also become jw

  yet now all such persons must be considered-

  you see my dear friend the fact of the matter is it is very hard to take a black and white stand on such an issue as this-- due to the millions of circumstances that impact ones life

  to say that some poor unedcated "Adult" living in some dirt floor hut in Africa is the same as some "Adult" living in a "Million" home in Southern CA- who just lost his child is the same ----is just plain silly-

  whenever i see someone try to define human behavior as being just a black and white issue is truly sad

  according to this posters "Logic" at anytime person is taken advantage of by any corporation they are "Sh!t" out of luck

  other than that this type of "Post" does produce a lot of comments-

  so it does serve a purpose in showing how folks

  1. THINK

  2, REASON

  3 AND FEEL ABOUT OTHERS WHO SUFFER

  i think it is goofy for anyone to take a dogmatic position and say -The WT is to blame for ALL my Woo

  and by the same token it is just as Goofy to say that a Person is to blame for ALL their Woo

  this type of mindset is what we all saw in wt-

  if sister old who is 90 yrs, sick and one leg can pioneer, then sister single who can do it

  or bro johnson with 4kids pioneers, then of course bro davis with just one kid can pioneeer

  we all felt the wrath of the ONE MAN/WOMAN- ONE RULE mindset

  and in my view this post is just a reminder of how Goofy that mindset is

  just my 2
• 

  setfreefinally

  I have to agree with Alan on this one. The way a person is raised and taught, especially when even his reading material is censored to a large extent, has a very large bearing on the way a person thinks. It can be extremely hard to think "outside the box". For many JWs, they never will.

  JWs are conditioned over a long period of time to think in only one direction. That is; what comes from Jehovahs organization can be accepted as truth and everything else is questionable and at worst probably propaganda from satan trying to corrupt their thinking.

  If nothing major ever comes along to make them question and to think outside the box, they will forever remain "in" the box.

  SFF