Should The Age Of Consent Be Lowered To 13?

by Englishman 69 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Stacey Smith:

    Well well well, did you have much trouble climbing up on that high horse?

    I can't see how busting your chops for making disgusting insinuations about another poster is climbing on a high horse. If you were more capable of discussing things like an adult you wouldn't have to fight dirty, but it appears you like dishing it out but don't like taking it... poor diddums...

    I was spitting at YOU in the gutter, if anything...

    Isn't it amazing how it's the males here who find fault with setting a younger age limit for legal sex with girls. Just amazing.

    Hello Stacey, please read the above sentence of yours again;

    Do you mean (leading on from my question to you regarding your age and that of the person you first had sex with) that "it is amazing males here find fault with female-female sex having a lower age of consent than female-male sex"?

    If so you're a massive hypocrite; whatever the age of consent is it should be the same for boys and girls; there are females who predate adolescent females too, you know. If I hear another lesbian try to convince me that teenage lesbian love is fine but teenage heterosexual love isn't I'm gonna projectile vomit all over their double-standard combat trousers and wallet on a chain.

    Or do you ACTUALLY mean the reverse of what you say (as previously it seems you're being critical of guys being in favour of a age of consent lower than 18, but you actually say the reverse of that above)?

    ok, I've grown weary of this thread.

    Yes of course dear; nothing to do with the fact you've shot your mouth off, been offensive, and are either to indolent, stupid or arrogant to either defend your argument, answer questions or apologise. I don't actually think you're stupid, but the other two aren't great choices, are they?

    Oh, by the way, I love you in Will & Grace...

    core:

    No one here is really advocating lowering the general age of consent from 16; it's wise that it's there for exactly the reasons you give, let alone the sociological reasons it's changed in the last century.

    The lower limit only appplies to sex where both people are under 16 or within two or three years of each other in age. I can't see the lower limit changing, and any argument based on a generalised fear of "the ratchet of lowering standards will always move things down not up" (which is itself a fallacious arguement) is a fallacious argument of adverse conceqenses (the slippery slope argument).

    shamus:

    Paedophile strictly speaking refers to someone attracted to prepubescent children. I'm reliably informed by my friend who is a psychologist that hebephile is the correct term for those with a sexual attraction to adolescent females.

    I actually think that Western society is guilty of MASSIVE hypocracy in this area, as a fair examination of images of young women in the media make it look like many Western males enjoy hebephilic imagary.

    Just watch MTV for a little while... or Romeo and Juliet, as Simon points out... hell, if Mary was 14 when "god's spirit came upon her", then he's a hebephile too.

    Now, I think it's completely natural that from puberty onwards people develop their sexuality, rather than it magically arriving in a box on their 18th birthday. I think it's essential that younger teenagers are protected from adult sexual predators. But if we don't want people in their late teens to be sexual we have to change society as it's not just their genes and hormones that sexualizes late-teens; it's society.

    I also agree that a 40 year-old with a 17 year-old is tacky.

    Yes, there are 17 year-olds who could be taken advatage of by 40 year-olds, just like there are 21 year-olds who can be taken advantage of by 45 year-olds. But you have to draw a line somewhere; a 17 year-old is already begining to make life changing decisions on their own. Sex is just another part of life, not something that requires different rules or logic to the rest.

  • unclebruce
    unclebruce

    Yes Simon "your" society certainly is mixed up. (mixed up, shook up, shaken, stirred, swallowed and passed out by the back passage if you arsk me :/ .. It's no use denying England is in deep deep trouble - I watch The Bill

    After my wednesday night fix of Sun Hill drama I watched a program about the repercussions of the Catholic Church's longstanding ban on condoms and abortion. It made for quite emotive viewing (much anti-pope mumbling filled the caravan). One case involved a girl, pregnant at eight years of age (and was thereby facing certain death if the pregnancy was allowed to take it's course). The might of the Catholic Church weighed into the case and fought tooth and nail to stop a termination going ahead. (JW's aren't the only control freak'n, misogynous pricks pulling the worlds social levers :(

    No the age of consent should not be lowered to thirteen or twelve or eleven or eight or four .. Not in Australia anyway (child to child sex law is not enforced here anyway .. so this 'issue' is a non-starter in this sensible part of the planet

    cheers, over-aged bruce

    Now for something on topic .. should the age of baptism be lowered to 10?

  • Gordy
    Gordy

    The age of consent was made 16 during the late 19th century, because many younger girls were being used in prositution at the time. Return to to a lower age (13) and I'm sure the same problem will arise again.

    Would it mean also that the age for gay sex recently reduced to 16 in the UK would also have to follow suit?

    So how could you call someone a peadophile, if they are LEGALLY having sex with a 13 yr.old girl or boy.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Gordy:

    The age of consent was made 16 during the late 19th century, because many younger girls were being used in prositution at the time.

    Partially right, partially wrong. In Britain it was raised to 16 in 188x or 189x, foir the concerns you express. However, in the 'States it was quite legal to marry a person under the age of 16 for most of the 20th Century. Jerry Lee Lewis's wife (for example) was, what, 13? That was not really commented on in the USA at the time, but when he came to England he was virtually hounded from the country and it severly impacted his career in the UK. Are peoples' memories that short?

    Return to to a lower age (13) and I'm sure the same problem will arise again.

    Would it mean also that the age for gay sex recently reduced to 16 in the UK would also have to follow suit?

    Er... prostitutution is illegal in most countries. It still happens. The age of consent is 16 in most countries. Child prostitution still happens.

    And, at risk of repeating something, NO ONE IS REALLY ADVOCATING REDUCING THE GENERAL AGE OF CONSENT.

    The only thing related to sex and people under 16 are comments that those under 16 and above a lower limit should not be subject to prosecution for having sex with someone of a similar age, and should be educated to allow them to make informed choices (which seems to delay people having sex).

    So how could you call someone a peadophile, if they are LEGALLY having sex with a 13 yr.old girl or boy.
    Er, since when was paedophilia a legal term? It means, irrespective of the law, sexual attraction to prepubescents, just as hebephile means sexual attraction to adolescent females.
  • Michael3000
    Michael3000

    13 would make Roman Polanski very happy.

  • SanFranciscoJim
    SanFranciscoJim

    I have a question :

    In countries that have and enforce Age of Consent laws, aren't these laws generally two-tiered? In other words, doesn't part of the law allow for children (post-puberty) to engage in sexual relations with their peers without fear of legal ramifications? Don't these same laws, however, strictly forbid adult sexual contact with minors?

    If I am correct and the Age of Consent laws are written in such a manner, as I have always been led to believe, then why the debate about pedophilia? I simply can't see how lowering the age of consent for minors within their own peer group would open the door to relaxing laws against pedophilia?

    Additionally, I cannot possibly imagine any country ever passing an Age of Consent law allowing sex by or with prepubescent children.

    Again, I will say that if Age of Consent laws are to be lowered, it should be the responsibility of the parent(s) to ensure that their children are properly educated. The laws should be written in such a way that if violated, the responsible parent or adult guardian should be held accountable. This would help ensure that more parents properly educate their children in sex matters, thus destigmatizing the sex relation. When a subject is destigmatized, a reduced sense of curiosity and desire for experimentation results. Of course, if parents present sexual topics to their offspring in a JW-like manner, condemning the sex relation as grossly immoral, destigmatization will not occur. As long as some cultures continues to attach a stigma to sex, the natural curiosity of youth will often be heightened, and these children will rebel against their parents anyway. The numbers of youth who are disfellowshipped for sexual offenses from the JWs, I understand, is staggering.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Here is a link listing US age of consent by state. There is also a link for international ages of consent.

    http://teenadvice.about.com/library/weekly/qanda/blageofconsentchart.htm

    Heather

    PS Here is a link from this site explaining what the age of consent means. http://teenadvice.about.com/library/weekly/qanda/blageofconsent2.htm

    Here's a bit on the age differences between two partners:

    Even if you are at the age of consent for where you live, the age of your partner can also effect the legality of the act. Confused yet? It gets worse! If you and your partner are both UNDER the age of consent, neither of you can legally consent to sex and under the law, you are both committing an offence in having sex (although this type of offence is rarely charged). If you are at the age of consent but your partner is OVER the age of majority, even if you yell yes at the top of your lungs and bring the condom, your partner could be guilty of Statutory Rape. If you are at the age of consent, but not at the age of majority, and you have sex with somebody under the age of consent, you too could be guilty of Statutory Rape. Some states will even charge you as an adult! As far as the law goes, if you are at the age of consent, it is safest to have sex with somebody your own age. Even 1 year can make a difference. Here's a strange scenario: you could be legally having sex with your boyfriend who is only 1 year older than you when he has a birthday that puts him at the age of majority, depending on where you live it may not be legal for the two of you to continue having sex, even if you have been intimate for months or years.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    SFJim:

    In countries that have and enforce Age of Consent laws, aren't these laws generally two-tiered? In other words, doesn't part of the law allow for children (post-puberty) to engage in sexual relations with their peers without fear of legal ramifications? Don't these same laws, however, strictly forbid adult sexual contact with minors?

    If I am correct and the Age of Consent laws are written in such a manner, as I have always been led to believe, then why the debate about pedophilia? I simply can't see how lowering the age of consent for minors within their own peer group would open the door to relaxing laws against pedophilia?

    I know Jim, I know... I've been slapping my head everytime someone completely misses the point you make there. I now have a headache.

    For some reason, even though no-one has advocated lowering the general age of consent from 16 (I think we can ignore the 9 US States with an age-of-consent of 18 as being rather unrepresentative), people keep on thinking a lower limit for sex between people under the general age of consent means that a paedophiles life will be easier.

    No one actually says why it would, probably for the sensible reason there are no reasons why it would.

    Additionally, I cannot possibly imagine any country ever passing an Age of Consent law allowing sex by or with prepubescent children.

    I agree.

    Again, I will say that if Age of Consent laws are to be lowered, it should be the responsibility of the parent(s) to ensure that their children are properly educated. The laws should be written in such a way that if violated, the responsible parent or adult guardian should be held accountable. This would help ensure that more parents properly educate their children in sex matters, thus destigmatizing the sex relation. When a subject is destigmatized, a reduced sense of curiosity and desire for experimentation results. Of course, if parents present sexual topics to their offspring in a JW-like manner, condemning the sex relation as grossly immoral, destigmatization will not occur. As long as some cultures continues to attach a stigma to sex, the natural curiosity of youth will often be heightened, and these children will rebel against their parents anyway. The numbers of youth who are disfellowshipped for sexual offenses from the JWs, I understand, is staggering.

    I disagree. There used to be a saying in Britain, when we still had dog licenses, that you "needed a license for a dog but not for children". I simply think making such an important part of someone's social and health education a parental responsibilty opens up the possibility of parents not doing it because they are incapable, embaressed, opposed to the idea... or because they are sexually abusive parents.

    If we really are concerened about reducing the vulnerability of our children to paedophiles and reducing sexual abuse of children, we can't leave it to the parents, as sometime the parents are the problem.

    I am certainly happy to give up any right to opt my child out of school sex education classes; I'd know the loss of 'freedom' I 'suffered' would be more than compensated by the fact that compulsory school-based education would help protect every child receiving it fro harm - whether from sexual predator, sexually transmitted disease, or unwanted pregnancy.

    I don't personally understand why anyone would insist on the right to opt out considering the potential for harm this opens up in certain scenarios.

    But as the debate about paedophilia is largely reduced to a 'War Against Paedophilia' where the people who commit these crimes are seen as the begining and end of the problem, rather than a problem with the society we live in and the way it deals with sex and young people, many people put their own scruples above the safety of children.

    Even if they mean well it's a terrible shame...

  • SanFranciscoJim
    SanFranciscoJim
    If we really are concerened about reducing the vulnerability of our children to paedophiles and reducing sexual abuse of children, we can't leave it to the parents, as sometime the parents are the problem.

    Abaddon, you are talking about how things are. I'm talking about a hopeful future. If strict legislation were enacted to make parents responsible for their children's sexual violations, I believe we would have a lot fewer parents contributing to their children's delinquency.

    It's not unlike the bullying issue in the schools. Parental responsibility is rarely taken into account, until an incident like that at Columbine occurs, and then it is too late. If parents were held legally responsible for their child's bullying, then the bullying problem in our schools might be reduced, and the bullied may no longer see the need to bring weapons to school with which to mow their classmates down.

    It is common knowledge that abused children often become abusers themselves. Make parental accountability a more strongly enforceable law, and enforce it, and the end result should be less disturbed youth in our society. With that enforcement should come the establishment of safe havens for children. This is where our schools come in. Aside from providing competent, unbiased sex education, they should have guidance counselors at the ready where a child can feel free to go in complete confidence to seek refuge from an abusive household. This is not the case in today's public schools.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    SFJim:

    Abaddon, you are talking about how things are. I'm talking about a hopeful future. If strict legislation were enacted to make parents responsible for their children's sexual violations, I believe we would have a lot fewer parents contributing to their children's delinquency.

    Ultimately I agree the best thing is to raise social awareness of people to the point where, irespective of legislation, any parent who doesn't make sure their child is decently educated in that are is considered irresponsible by any reasonable person.

    Thirty years ago in England drink-driving was endemic. Now in an awful lot of social groups driving home from a party or a pub drunk will attract a lot of crticism from people you are there with, possibly even intervention.

    It is peoples' attitudes toward it let alone the increased policing of the crime that make the change.

    However, I do not have enough trust in the reach and consistancy of parental education on social issues, and feel that legilsating to make people who may be incapable of such education criminal would be unfair until we are talking about parents who themselves received decent sex education in schools.

    Even beyond them, we still need sex education in school to try and protect children born into abusive households.

    It's not unlike the bullying issue in the schools. Parental responsibility is rarely taken into account, until an incident like that at Columbine occurs, and then it is too late. If parents were held legally responsible for their child's bullying, then the bullying problem in our schools might be reduced, and the bullied may no longer see the need to bring weapons to school with which to mow their classmates down.

    I totally agree.

    It is common knowledge that abused children often become abusers themselves. Make parental accountability a more strongly enforceable law, and enforce it, and the end result should be less disturbed youth in our society. With that enforcement should come the establishment of safe havens for children. This is where our schools come in. Aside from providing competent, unbiased sex education, they should have guidance counselors at the ready where a child can feel free to go in complete confidence to seek refuge from an abusive household. This is not the case in today's public schools.

    I think we've got very similar viewpoints!

    All the best

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