by Alex Williams 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Because we were made in Gods image thats why
Does god feel pain, hunger, thirst, infirmities of old age or does he experience the insecurities of life, failure of internal organs and its suffering ? And what makes you say that we were made in Gods image.
THe opposite seems very plausible. Man made God in man's image
Another great posting by Leolaia that illustrates the use of the word "paradise" in usage when the NT was written:
The interpretations are indeed bizarre and betray an ignorance of late Jewish cosmology, which repeatedly located Paradise in heaven (cf. Testament of Abraham 11:1-10; 4 Ezra 4:7-8; 2 Baruch 4:6, 51:7-11; Life of Adam and Eve 25:3, 42:4; compare Revelation 21-22), or specifically in third heaven (cf. 2 Enoch 8:1-7; Apocalypse of Moses 37:5). This "Paradise" was not some vague notion of a wonderful "paradise earth," but nothing less than the original Garden of Eden which had been preserved in heaven, which currently exists as the abode of Enoch, Elijah, and other OT saints, and which would be revealed as the abode of the righteous at the end of the age. Thus we read in Jewish apocalyptic literature:
"And the men took from there. They brought me up to the third heaven. And they placed me in the midst of Paradise. And that place has an apperance of pleasantness that has never been seen. Every tree was in full flower. Every fruit was ripe, every food was in yield profusely; every fragrance was pleasant. And the four rivers were flowing past with gentle movement, with every kind of garden producing every kind of good food. And the tree of life is in that place, under which the Lord takes a rest when the Lord takes a walk in Paradise. And that tree is indescribable for pleasantness of fragrance" (2 Enoch 8:1-3).
"And he shall open the gates of Paradise; he shall remove the sword that has threatened since Adam, and he will grant the saints to eat of the tree of life. The spirit of holiness shall be upon them, and Beliar shall be bound by him" (Testament of Levi 18:10-12).
"To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God....I saw the holy city, and the New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven...Then the angel showed me the river of life, rising from the throne of God and of the Lamb [in heaven] and flowing crystal-clear down the middle of the city street. On either side of the river were the trees of life, which bear twelve crops of fruit a year, one in each month, and the leaves of which are the cure of the pagans" (Revelation 2:7; 21:2; 22:1-2).
"And he shall take from Beliar the captives, the souls of the saints; and he shall turn the hearts of the disobedient ones to the Lord, and grant eternal peace to those who call upon him. And the saints shall refresh themselves in Eden; the righteous shall rejoice in New Jerusalem, which shall be eternally for the glorification of God" (Testament of Dan 5:11-12).
In light of this well-attested concept in the contemporary literature, it is clear that Paul is here describing a vision involving a rapture into heaven, witnessing the indescribable things of Paradise -- a rapture rather reminiscent of that of Enoch who was taken up into heaven in the body, but who was "extracted from his earthly clothing" when he entered the highest heaven (2 Enoch 22:8). It is not necessary to interpret 2 Corinthians 12 as referring to a vision of the future since the Paradise of Eden continues to exist in heaven before the throne of God.
As to whether Paul was referring to himself or someone else in the passage in 2 Corinthians 12, it is true he prefaces the vision by saying "I know a man in Christ," but the whole experience is related within a discussion of boasting of Paul's own experiences (ch. 11), and the fact that Paul related "these revelations" (tón apokalupseón) in v. 7 to his own physical infirmity ("the thorn in the flesh") and interpreted his infirmity as preventing him "from getting too proud" about the visions indicates that he was indeed referring to his own experiences. It is generally thought that Paul's description of the vision in the third person was a rhetorical device designed to undercut a claim that he was boasting, since he was on the surface speaking of someone other than himself when he was really reporting his own experiences. Otherwise, what relevance was there about talking about someone else's experiences in this text? He was here trying to respond to the criticisms of his opponents, which specifically included a criticism of "weakness" and a criticism of "ambition" (10:1-18). His "weakness" or frailty in the flesh is rationalized in 12:7-10 as a hidden benefit which prevents him from getting proud from having "visions and revelations". He only mentions the visions to explain why he has this "weakness" that others criticize. But he is at pains to not boast about the visions, and talks about it in a way that distances them from himself. For Paul, he would rather boast about his weakness than his spiritual strengths (11:30). By doing so, he contrasts himself with the "super-apostles" opposing him who freely boast about themselves (11:12).
Also, regarding the placement of a comma in Luke 23:43: the expression appears 74 times "Truly I tell you...." or some minor variation and in every usage what follows is the saying. The WT translators know this well enough in 73 places but in just this 1 occurrence dislocated the word "today" through use of a comma to conceal the author's intent.
So back to the topic, "paradise" was regarded as being in heaven by Jewish religious writers and the NT writers. In all 4 places 'paradise' appears in the NT it refers to heavenly location. That this creates an issue with the story may reflect redaction and editing work.
Also, regarding the placement of a comma in Luke 23:43: the expression appears 74 times "Truly I tell you...." and in every usage what follows is the saying. The WT translators know this well enough in 73 places but in just this 1 occurrence dislocated the word "today" through use of a comma to conceal the author's intent. The author of Luke continues in chapter 24 with the ascension to heaven scene the same day, there is no delay of 40 days. So in this matter the book of Luke is internally consistant.
Thank you peacefulpete for clarifying and highlighting one of the evil things the Watchtower attempted to do with that comma in Luke (original Greek did not contain commas). Just goes to show the extent the leaders will go in so far as corrupting the word of God. Talk about craziness. Geez!
In the famous words of Jack Nicholson:
Alex, please take your WTS crazy teachings somewhere, we're all stocked up here.
Its been a while since discussing this topic and I had a couple errors in my post. I edited some of them away.
In simplistic terms if the comma in Luke 23:43 is that day the thief was to be with Jesus then why did Jesus tell Mary he had not yet ascended to the father,if fact he was on earth 40 days
"Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father
So days later he told the thief he would be with him had to be the day he was saying it not TODAY you will be in paradise makes no sense that teaching,it could have easily been I tell you today you will be with me and in view of the fact he didnt go anywhere JWs teaching makes more sense not the Churches
Going back to your original post Alex, and the scripture in 1 Thessalonians 4, it mentions that Jesus would come down from heaven (ie no longer in heaven at the time) where every eye can see him, and that the chosen ones would be caught up to me him in the air (not in heaven).
Paul stated: “This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom,
Upon dying in faithfulness during Christ’s presence, each one of the remnant of spiritual Israel instantaneously receives his heavenly reward. “In the twinkling of an eye,” he is resurrected as a spirit creature and “caught away” to meet Jesus and to serve as a coruler in the Kingdom
This has nothing to do with a rapture at the end of the world
Paul added: “Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.” (Verse 17) “The living” would be those alive during Christ’s presence. They would be “caught away” to meet the Lord Jesus. As in the case of faithful early Christians, death as a human is necessary for them to be united with Christ in heaven.
Thessalonians speaks of the resurrection hope not a rapture which word is not in the scriptures
1 Thessalonians 4:17 as the basis for their belief. Let us examine this scripture in its context. Paul wrote:
“Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping in death; that you may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus God will bring with him.
The congregation in Thessalonica was relatively new when Paul addressed his first letter to Christians there in about 50 C.E. Members of the congregation were distressed that some of their number were “sleeping in death.” However, what Paul wrote comforted the Thessalonians with the resurrection hope.
when Paul addressed his first letter to Christians there in about 50 C.E. Members of the congregation were distressed that some of their number were “sleeping in death.” However, what Paul wrote comforted the Thessalonians with the resurrection hope.
OK, but when did this resurrection hope become a reality for the ones Paul addressed here?
In simplistic terms if the comma in Luke 23:43 is that day the thief was to be with Jesus then why did Jesus tell Mary he had not yet ascended to the father,if fact he was on earth 40 days
The mistaken premise you are working from is that the added resurrection stories of Acts, Matt and John must be harmonized with Luke. Or that Luke can't contradict Luke. Each of these writings circulated independently in their respective communities of Christians until they were compiled in an attempt to establish an orthodoxy in the second century. Due to the inconsistencies, gospel harmonies were created very early on and became more popular than any one of the gospels you now have in the NT.
All the authors are anonymous and names were assigned by tradition, however for convention I will refer to the authors as those traditionally named. Mark was first then Matthew took Mark and simply added a number of new and heavily Jewish stories and material he felt was missing. The nativity and ascension stories being two biggies. Luke seems to have known both Mark and Matt but felt more editing was needed, notably in the order of events. These three are called the Synoptics do to their literary relationship, IOW they are not independent works but revisions of Mark. Acts was possibly by the same hand as Luke but shows signs of heavy redaction making it difficult to draw conclusions about the actual author's thoughts. There were dozens of other gospels BTW only a few of which have survived in more than fragments and quotes. Most Christians accepted at least a few of these as equal to the 4 you know. John was a gospel penned for the Johannine community, a more esoteric group which was open to a more mystical version than the other 3 and its acceptance was not immediate when the orthodoxy began appearing.
So yes, the simple and most consistent translation of Luke 23:43 is in tension with other parts of the story as we now have them. That does not give a translator permission to gloss over these issues. That crosses the line from translating to harmonizing.
