Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 10

by hooberus 126 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    Earnest said: Please refer to Dialogue with Trypho, chapter CXXVII in my previous post where Justin explains at length that when he refers to Christ as God "you must not imagine" that it refers to the unbegotten God Himself. In fact, in the passage that you quoted (where he is called an Angel) he says that he is "another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things" (Dialogue with Trypho, chapter LVI).

    Subjection does not always denote a lower nature. Wives are subject to their husbands, yet they have the same equal nature. Note that in the same paragraph that He used the word subject He taught that Christ was God who appeared to Abraham. He taught that three beings appeared to Abraham, one was God and two were angels. He taught that the one who was God was Christ as distinguished from the two angels that accompanied him. He Justin shows that Christ was the Jehovah God who appeared to Abraham and that He is God by nature as opposed to the other two who are created spirit angels by nature.

      Chapter LVI.-God Who Appeared to Moses is Distinguished from God the Father.

    "Moses, then, the blessed and faithful servant of God, declares that He who appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre is God, sent with the two angels in His company to judge Sodom by Another who remains ever in the supercelestial places, invisible to all men, holding personal intercourse with none, whom we believe to be Maker and Father of all things; for he speaks thus: `God appeared to him under the oak in Mature, as he sat at his tent-door at noontide. And lifting up his eyes, he saw, and behold, three men stood before him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the door of his tent; and he bowed himself toward the ground, and said; '" 178 (and so on; ) 179 "`Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord: and he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward the adjacent country, and beheld, and, lo, a flame went up from the earth, like the smoke of a furnace.'" And when I had made an end of quoting these words, I asked them if they had understood them.

    And they said they had understood them, but that the passages adduced brought forward no proof that there is any other God or Lord, or that the Holy Spirit says so, besides the Maker of all things.

    Then I replied, "I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to 180 the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things-above whom there is no other God-wishes to announce to them." And quoting once more the previous passage, I asked Trypho, "Do you think that God appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mature, as the Scripture asserts? "

    He said, "Assuredly."

    "Was He one of those three," I said, "whom Abraham saw, and whom the Holy Spirit of prophecy describes as men? "

    He said, "No; but God appeared to him, before the vision of the three. Then those three whom the Scripture calls men, were angels; two of them sent to destroy Sodom, and one to announce the joyful tidings to Sarah, that she would bear a son; for which cause he was sent, and having accomplished his errand, went away." 181

    "How then," said I, "does the one of the three, who was in the tent, and who said, `I shall return to thee hereafter, and Sarah shall have a son, ' 182 appear to have returned when Sarah had begotten a son, and to be there declared, by the prophetic word, God? But that you may clearly discern what I say, listen to the words expressly employed by Moses; they are these: `And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian bond-woman, whom she bore to Abraham, sporting with Isaac her son, and said to Abraham, Cast out this bond-woman and her son; for the son of this bond-woman shall not share the inheritance of my son Isaac. And the matter seemed very grievous in Abraham's sight, because of his son. But God said to Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the son, and because of the bond-woman. In all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken to her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.' 183 Have you perceived, then, that He who said under the oak that He would return, since He knew it would be necessary to advise Abraham to do what Sarah wished him, came back as it is written; and is God, as the words declare, when they so speak: `God said to Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the son, and because of the bond-woman? '" I inquired. And Trypho said, "Certainly; but you have not proved from this that there is another God besides Him who appeared to Abraham, and who also appeared to the other patriarchs and prophets. You have proved, however, that we were wrong in believing that the three who were in the tent with Abraham were all angels."

    I replied again, "If I could not have proved to you from the Scriptures that one of those three is God, and is called Angel, 184 because, as I already said, He brings messages to those to whom God the Maker of all things wishes [messages to be brought], then in regard to Him who appeared to Abraham on earth in human form in like manner as the two angels who came with Him, and who was God even before the creation of the world, it were reasonable for you to entertain the same belief as is entertained by the whole of your nation."

    "Assuredly," he said, "for up to this moment this has been our belief."

    Then I replied, "Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavour to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things,-numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will. For I affirm that He has never at any time done 185 anything which He who made the world-above whom there is no other God-has not wished Him both to do and to engage Himself with."

    And Trypho said, "Prove now that this is the case, that we also may agree with you. For we do not understand you to affirm that He has done or said anything contrary to the will of the Maker of all things."

    Then I said, "The Scripture just quoted by me will make this plain to you. It is thus: `The sun was risen on the earth, and Lot entered into Segor (Zoar); and the Lord rained on Sodom sulphur and fire from the Lord out of heaven, and overthrew these cities and all the neighbourhood.'" 186

    Then the fourth of those who had remained with Trypho said, "It 187 must therefore necessarily be said that one of the two angels who went to Sodom, and is named by Moses in the Scripture Lord, is different from Him who also is God and appeared to Abraham." 188

    "It is not on this ground solely," I said, "that it must be admitted absolutely that some other one is called Lord by the Holy Spirit besides Him who is considered Maker of all things; not solely [for what is said] by Moses, but also [for what is said] by David. For there is written by him: `The Lord says to my Lord, Sit on My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool, ' 189 as I have already quoted. And again, in other words: `Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever. A sceptre of equity is the sceptre of Thy kingdom: Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity: therefore God, even Thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows.' 190 If, therefore, you assert that the Holy Spirit calls some other one God and Lord, besides the Father of all things and His Christ, answer me; for I undertake to prove to you from Scriptures themselves, that He whom the Scripture calls Lord is not one of the two angels that went to Sodom, but He who was with them, and is called God, that appeared to Abraham."

    And Trypho said, "Prove this; for, as you see, the day advances, and we are not prepared for such perilous replies; since never yet have we heard any man investigating, or searching into, or proving these matters; nor would we have tolerated your conversation, had you not referred everything to the Scriptures: 191 for you are very zealous in adducing proofs from them; and you are of opinion that there is no God above the Maker of all things."

    Then I replied, "You are aware, then, that the Scripture says, `And the Lord said to Abraham, Why did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I truly conceive? for I am old. Is anything impossible with God? At the time appointed shall I return to thee according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.' 192 And after a little interval: `And the men rose up from thence, and looked towards Sodom and Gomorrah; and Abraham went with them, to bring them on the way. And the Lord said, I will not conceal from Abraham, my servant, what I do.' 193 And again, after a little, it thus says: `The Lord said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, 194 and their sins are very grievous. I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to their cry which has come unto me; and if not, that I may know. And the men turned away thence, and went to Sodom. But Abraham was standing before the Lord; and Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt Thou destroy the righteous with the wicked? '" 195 (and so on, 196 for I do not think fit to write over again the same words, having written them all before, but shall of necessity give those by which I established the proof to Trypho and his companions. Then I proceeded to what follows, in which these words are recorded: ) "`And the Lord went His way as soon as He had left communing with Abraham; and [Abraham] went to his place. And there came two angels to Sodom at even. And Lot sat in the gate of Sodom; ' 197 and what follows until, `But the men put forth their hands, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door of the house; ' 198 and what follows till, `And the angels laid hold on his hand, and on the hand of his wife, and on the hands of his daughters, the Lord being merciful to him. And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that they said, Save, save thy life. Look not behind thee, nor stay in all the neighbourhood; escape to the mountain, lest thou be taken along with [them]. And Lot said to them, I beseech [Thee], O Lord, since Thy servant hath found grace in Thy sight, and Thou hast magnified Thy righteousness, which Thou showest towards me in saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountain, lest evil overtake me, and I die. Behold, this city is near to flee unto, and it is small: there I shall be safe, since it is small; and any soul shall live. And He said to him, Behold, I have accepted thee 199 also in this matter, so as not to destroy the city for which thou hast spoken. Make haste to save thyself there; for I shall not do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore he called the name of the city Segor (Zoar). The sun was risen upon the earth; and Lot entered into Segor (Zoar). And the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the Lord out of heaven; and He overthrew these cities, and all the neighbourhood.' " 200 And after another pause I added: "And now have you not perceived, my friends, that one of the three, who is both God and Lord, and ministers to Him who is in the heavens, is Lord of the two angels? For when [the angels] proceeded to Sodom, He remained behind, and communed with Abraham in the words recorded by Moses; and when He departed after the conversation, Abraham went back to his place. And when he came [to Sodom], the two angels no longer conversed with Lot, but Himself, as the Scripture makes evident; and He is the Lord who received commission from the Lord who [remains] in the heavens, i.e., the Maker of all things, to inflict upon Sodom and Gomorrah the [judgments] which the Scripture describes in these terms: `The Lord rained down upon Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the Lord out of heaven.' "

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    P.S. John 1:14, 18

    Jesus is the only one of his kind, unique Son of God Vs. 14

    Jesus is God, the unique, one of a kind Son, who exegetes or brings forth, or declares the Father. Vs. 18

    He is able to do this because he is in the Father's bosom, denoting the closest possible relationship between the two.

    Angels, Adam, judges, and we ourselves may be called sons of God but none of us are God, the Son. No comparison.

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    Earnest said: As we have previously discussed, this distinction between nature and function is not always clear. The biblical word "angel" has the meaning of messenger and is applied to spirit creatures because they are messengers of God. That is their function rather than their nature, and is a label by which we can identify them. As I explained in a previous post (12-Oct-03 15:56 GMT) : "When spirit messengers are indicated the words are translated 'angels,' but if the reference is to human creatures, the rendering is 'messengers'." So you could infer that when it indicates spirit messengers it refers to their nature as spirit creatures, and when it indicates human messengers it refers to their nature as humans, but you would be wrong as in both cases it simply refers to their function. This was explained at some length by Dean Porter in his posts of 14-Oct-03 which you may care to review.

    Though the word aggelos can refer to function as a messenger. I think that in the examples below it clearly refers to nature as well. In many of these verses "angels" are contratsted with men. If one substitues "messengers" for angels in these passages, the passages do not seem to make as much sense as if angels refers to nature as spirit creatures. Note I am not saying that aggelos always means nature as opposed to function only, but that sometimes it does.

    Romans 8

    38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    1 Corinthians 4

    9: For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

    2 Peter 2

    10: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
    11: Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

    Hebrews Chapter 1

    7: And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

    14: Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

    Hebrews 2

    5: For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
    6: But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    7: Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
    8: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
    9: But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    16: For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    17: Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. (there are different translations this verse however they generally seem to contrast the being of angels with humanity).

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    Earnest : Hebrews 1 speaks of the Son and the angels as being "fellows", or "partners" but the Son was appointed to a superior position...the Son and the Angels are by "nature" sons of God but his Sonship is greater by virtue that he is the "firstborn" with the privileges that entails.

    Kenneson : No, angels are his companions because they were created through the Son and for him; they are his angels and he sustains them. Heb. 1:3 He is not one of them. He has a superior position because he is the only Son, not because he is a higher ranking angel. The name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. It is this name (Son) which shows his superiority to the angels...Angels, Adam, judges, and we ourselves may be called sons of God but none of us are God, the Son. No comparison.

    Jesus himself made a comparison with judges in John 10:34-36 " 'Is it not written in your Law, "I said: 'You are gods' "? If he called "gods" those against whom the word of God came...do you say to me, "You blaspheme," because I said, I am God's Son?" This was not suggesting they were the same but that it was just as legitimate for him to describe himself as God's Son [not God, the Son as you suggest] as it was for the judges to be described as gods. But it is quite evident in the letter to the Hebrews that the Son was appointed to a higher position than he previously held. So, it says God "appointed him heir of all things" (1:2), that he "has become" (genomenos) better than the angels (1:4), he "has inherited" a more excellent name (1:4). It says of him, that God "hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows". It is as Philippians 2:9 says, that God "highly exalted" him after "he had by himself purged our sins" (1:3). Now, if he has been appointed heir of all things, he has become better than the angels, he has inherited a more excellent name, he has been anointed above his fellows, he has been highly exalted and been given a name above every name...then what was he before such appointment, inheritance, anointing, and gift? If he was the angel of the covenant (Acts 7:38), or the one who appeared to Moses in a fiery flame (Acts 7:30), or the one who spoke with Abraham or Lot (Genesis 19) then he has now inherited a more excellent name, has been anointed above his fellows, is now a leader of the angels (Revelation 19:14) and at the right hand of God (Hebrews 1:3).

    Earnest : Please refer to Dialogue with Trypho, chapter CXXVII in my previous post where Justin explains at length that when he refers to Christ as God "you must not imagine" that it refers to the unbegotten God Himself. In fact, in the passage that you quoted (where he is called an Angel) he says that he is "another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things" (Dialogue with Trypho, chapter LVI).

    hooberus : Subjection does not always denote a lower nature. Wives are subject to their husbands, yet they have the same equal nature...He Justin shows that Christ was the Jehovah God who appeared to Abraham and that He is God by nature as opposed to the other two who are created spirit angels by nature.

    As Justin was in dialogue with "Trypho the Jew", I suggest that subjection to "the Maker of all things" would have been understood as denoting a lower nature, just as it would if you were in dialogue with a Jew today. Justin actually made it quite clear that this "other God" was not Jehovah of the shemah ("Jehovah our God is one Jehovah" - Deuteronomy 6:4) because he said in the same chapter :

    Then I replied, "Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavour to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things, - numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will. For I affirm that He has never at any time done anything which He who made the world-above whom there is no other God - has not wished Him both to do and to engage Himself with." (Dialogue with Trypho, chapter LVI).

    Justin understood that this was the messenger of Jehovah ["called Angel"], as Luke did when referring to the one who appeared to Moses (Acts 7:30-33) in similar terms. Throughout his writings Justin distinguishes between Christ and "the Maker of all things". He says he had a beginning ("For whoever is called by a name, has a person older than himself who gave him that name" - Second Apology, chapter VI), that he was created ("The Lord created me the beginning of His ways..." - Dialogue with Trypho, chapter LXI quoting Proverbs 8:22 LXX), that they were to worship God alone ("'there is none good but God alone,'...Hence we render worship to God alone..." - First Apology, chapter 16). He made a clear distinction between the Unbegotten God, Maker of all things, and the Christ.

    hooberus : Though the word aggelos can refer to function as a messenger. I think that in the examples below [Romans 8:38,39; 1 Corinthians 4:9; 2 Peter 2:10,11; Hebrews 1:7,14; 2:5-9,16,17] it clearly refers to nature as well. In many of these verses "angels" are contrasted with men. If one substitues "messengers" for angels in these passages, the passages do not seem to make as much sense as if angels refers to nature as spirit creatures. Note I am not saying that aggelos always means nature as opposed to function only, but that sometimes it does.

    Agreed. But while in English a reference to angels would always refer to spirit beings because the word is understood to refer to their nature, in the languages of the Bible it would always refer to messengers, whatever their nature.

    Earnest

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Earnest said: Justin understood that this was the messenger of Jehovah ["called Angel"], as Luke did when referring to the one who appeared to Moses (Acts 7:30-33) in similar terms. Throughout his writings Justin distinguishes between Christ and "the Maker of all things". He says he had a beginning ("For whoever is called by a name, has a person older than himself who gave him that name" - Second Apology, chapter VI), that he was created ("The Lord created me the beginning of His ways..." - Dialogue with Trypho, chapter LXI quoting Proverbs 8:22 LXX), that they were to worship God alone ("'there is none good but God alone,'...Hence we render worship to God alone..." - First Apology, chapter 16). He made a clear distinction between the Unbegotten God, Maker of all things, and the Christ.

    The interested party can read Justin's writings directly from this link:

    http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/TOC.htm#TopOfPage

    A thorough reading of Justin along with loking up the scriptures that He quoted and applied to Christ and the Father should give a good idea of his beliefs. I prefer now to stick to scriptures here for the sake of time as well as importance.

  • Don Smith
    Don Smith

    Upon investigation i think you will find that Gods word is consistent in stateing it is OUT, FROM, the Father and through the Son who is the the word of God.

    Don Smith

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    The term aggelos in the book of Hebrews is cleraly refering to nature as created spirit angel. The word angels aggelos in Hebrews clearly refers to nature as well as function. Christ is being contrased with the created spirit angels.

    "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." Hebrews 1:6

    Here, the Son is shown to be separate from all the created spirit angels.

    "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, . . . " Hebrews 1:7-8

    Here, the language used clearly shows the Son is shown to be separate from all the created spirit angels. (This is true regardless of how Hebrews 1:8 is translated).

    The following verses show that Christ is just as separate from the created spirit angels by nature as Jehovah is in the Old testament. To read Hebrews as including the Son in the same nature as all the created spirit angels is the equivalence of including Jehovah in the Old Testament in the same nature as the angels that he is contrased with in the OT.

    "Be glad, O heavens, together with him, and let all the angels of God worship him. Be glad, you nations, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him . . . " Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX

    "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." Hebrews 1:6

    "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:" Psalm 104:4

    "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Hebrews 1:7-9

    "I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end." Psalm 102:24-27

    "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail." Hebrews 1:10-12

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" Hebrews 1:5

    "But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?" Hebrews 1:13

    What is the answer to these questions? Aren't they rhetorical questions? if so, then how can the son be a created spirit angel by nature?

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Earnest,

    Is Phil. 2:9-11 saying that the Son was exalted only when he was given a name that is above every name: Jesus? That certainly cannot be as he was called Jesus even as a human (Matt. 1:21, 25; Luke 1:31; 2:21). And in this name demons were cast out (Matt. 7:22); people were healed (Acts 3:6); there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12); the name sets the tone for everything a Christian does (Col. 3:17) However, at the exaltation, we were given a promise, not yet fulfilled: it is the name which, one day in the future, every knee shall bow (per Phil.).

    What about Heb. 1? Did Jesus become the Son only at his exaltation? Again, that is not the case. He is called Son of God, even as a human. Begin with John 10:36 that you quoted. See also Matt. 16:16-17; Gal. 1:15, 16; Acts 9:20; John 20:31; Matt. 11:27; Matt. 21:34-38. As at his exaltation in Heb. 1:5, Jesus is also designated Son at his baptism (Matt. 3:17) and at his transfiguration (Matt. 17:5). Even in his humanity Jesus is called Son of God; the verses are numerous. Just a few here: John 3:16-17; Matt. 27:54; Luke 1:35; John 1:34, etc, etc., etc.

    So what is both Phil. and Hebrews saying? It is this. Jesus, who had limited himself in his humanity (Heb. 2:9) is no longer so (Heb. 1:4) He returns to the Father as the Exalted One, which is what he was in his PRE-EXISTENCE.

  • gumby
    gumby

    I wonder why god made these trinity verses troublesome?

    Gumby

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