Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 10

by hooberus 126 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

hooberus

The Watchtower and other Unitarians use scriptures that say that all things were "through" Jesus Christ in order to reduce him to being less than God. They reason that since all things are "of" the Father and "through" the Son that therefore the Son is not also Jehovah with the Father. Those who believe in the Deity of Jesus believe that both the Father and the Son are Jehovah (though different persons within the one Jehovah). Accordingly all things are "of" and "through" Jehovah.
The Bible teaches that all things are of and through Jehovah.
"For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him `be' the glory for ever. Amen." Romans 11:34-36
Comment: all things are "of" the Lord (Jehovah see NWT) and "through" the Lord (Jehovah).
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
Comment: all things are "of" the Father and "through" the Son.
Conclusion: Since Romans 11:36 teaches that all things are "of" and "through" Jehovah, and since 1 Corinthians 8:6 teaches that all things are "of" the Father and "through" the Son, then both the Father and the Son must together be the Lord (Jehovah) of Romans 11:36. Note the word"through" in Romans 11:36 and the word "through" in 1 Corinthians 8:6 are the same Greek word.
If the Father and the Son are together Jehovah then this would mean that Jehovah alone is the creator of all things. This agrees with the Old Testament:
"That alone stretcheth out the heavens, And treadeth upon the waves of the sea;" Job 9:8 ASV
"Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth (who is with me?);" Isaiah 44:24 ASV
rocketman

Interesting.
LittleToe

Hooberus:I agree with what you've stated, except for this statement:
Those who believe in the Deity of Jesus believe that both the Father and the Son are Jehovah
That's a generalisation. Not all have come to that conclusion.
Dean Porter

Hooberus,

Is there a scripture that refers to Jesus or the Son or the Messiah etc. that uses the same expression " of " which is used of God the Father in 1 Cor, 8:5,6. ?

Dean.
Earnest

hooberus wrote:
"For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him `be' the glory for ever. Amen." Romans 11:34-36
Paul also quotes from Isaiah 40:13 in the following verse:
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:16
Note the difference.
Dean Porter

Earnest,

You took the words right out of my mouth as I was intending to make the same point.

So , obviously the Lord ( of whom it is said all things are " of " ) cannot refer to the Christ.

Therefore, Hooberus's tenuous link between Christ and the Lord here, to try and prove that creation is " of " christ, falls flat.

The Lord here is the Father.

Creation is "of " the Father because the Father is the Source of Life.

" Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament " re : 1 Cor. 8:5,6.

Yet to us there is one God, the Father (all hmin eiß qeoß o pathr). B omits all here, but the sense calls for it anyhow in this apodosis, a strong antithesis to the protasis (even if at least, kai eiper). Of whom (ex ou). As the source (ex) of the universe (ta panta as in Romans 11:36; Colossians 1:16) and also our goal is God (eiß auton) as in Romans 11:36 where di autou is added whereas here di ou (through whom) and di autou (through him) point to Jesus Christ as the intermediate agent in creation as in Colossians 1:15-20; John 1:3.

regards

Dean.
hooberus

Dean Porter said: Therefore, Hooberus's tenuous link between Christ and the Lord here, to try and prove that creation is " of " christ, falls flat.

I was not using Romans 11:36 or 1 Corinthians 8:6 to try to prove that all things were "of" Christ.
Here is my comment again (Note the phrase "of" the Father and "through" the Son):
The Bible teaches that all things are of and through Jehovah.
"For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him `be' the glory for ever. Amen." Romans 11:34-36
Comment: all things are "of" the Lord (Jehovah see NWT) and "through" the Lord (Jehovah).
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
Comment: all things are "of" the Father and "through" the Son.
Conclusion: Since Romans 11:36 teaches that all things are "of" and "through" Jehovah, and since 1 Corinthians 8:6 teaches that all things are "of" the Father and "through" the Son, then both the Father and the Son must together be the Lord (Jehovah) of Romans 11:36. Note the word"through" in Romans 11:36 and the word "through" in 1 Corinthians 8:6 are the same Greek word.
Kenneson

Dean,
What is "intermediate agent in creation" supposed to mean? Did or did not the Son create? John 1:3 says "All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be." Notice that the Word is referred to as him; the Word is a person, who takes on flesh in verse 14. The Word is not merely the thought, plan or spoken words of the Father. Col. 1:16, 17 says :"For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth...all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Jesus is certainly co-creator with the Father. They jointly and together were partners in creation of the universe and in the creation of man (Gen. 1:26)
In regards to 1 Cor. 8:6 the New Jerome Biblical Commentary states: "The cosmological interpretation (see E. Norden, Agnostos Theos {Leipzing, 1913] 240-50) is less probable than the soteriological interpretation, which is more conformed to Pauline usage (Rom. 11:36; 1 Cor. 2:10-13; 12:4-6; 2 Cor. 4:14-15; 5:18; see J. Murphy-O'connor, RB 85 {1978] 353-67). There is no allusion to the preexistence of Christ (see J.D.G. Dunn, Christology in the Making {London, 1980] 179-83).
Dean Porter

Kenneson,

the phrase ' intermediate agent in creation ' means to me that Jesus was the Agency that the Father used to accomplish his work of creation.

The Father is the Creator , the Son is his agent.

Now I am fortunate to have some knowledge of Agent or Agency as a Legal Term in Scots Law. The Law of Agency is much the same I'm sure in most lands.

An agent is a party who is given authority or power from a Principal' party to act or accomplish some task for
or on behalf of the principal.

The Principal is thus the instigator and the party who is responsible for the work done even though it is the Agent who actually does it. The Principal would thus get the credit or in fact the blame for the result of the work.

Therefore , as I see it the greek text shows that the Father is the Principal party who instigated the creation because all things are " of " ( or 'out' of as the greek literally reads) whereas Jesus is the Agent who does the creative work for his principal and thus all things are " through' him.

You mention Genesis 1:26 but a point to note there is that God says let us MAKE man ( hebrew na-aseh ); he does not say let us CREATE man ( which is the hebrew word Ba-ra ).

So it appears he is not actually sharing the creative work but sharing the process of MAKING.

Also, if the Father and the Son were Co-Creators together, then surely Paul would have stated that all things were " of " the Father AND " of " the Son in 1 Cor. 8:5,6.

It is clear to me that Paul is drawing a distinction between the roles of the Father and Son showing that they are not the same. He shows that the Father is God , the Source of all things and Jesus is the Lord by which the Father accomplished this creative work.

This is the crux of the matter , Jesus is NOT shown to be the source of creation, only the Father is shown to be the source.

Also as a small issue , you mentioned the word in John 1:1 as being a ' HIM' actually the greek word can be translated either HIM or IT.

I am reading some seminar notes at this moment from a scottish universtiy and they suggest that it is now being understood how the Jews thought of Wisdom and the WORD as being Angels in some circles of thought. Interesting isn't it.

I will try to find the reference works you mentioned as they certainly sound worth reading.

regards

Dean.
Dean Porter

Hooberus,

with respect, I don't think you know what you are saying now. You seem to be confused by your own reasoning.

You stated....
Conclusion: Since Romans 11:36 teaches that all things are "of" and "through" Jehovah, and since 1 Corinthians 8:6 teaches that all things are "of" the Father and "through" the Son, then both the Father and the Son must together be the Lord (Jehovah) of Romans 11:36. Note the word"through" in Romans 11:36 and the word "through" in 1 Corinthians 8:6 are the same Greek word.

Because 1 Cor. 8:5,6 does not refer to all things being " of " Jesus, this presents the problem that only the Father is the source of creation, which doesn't fit your trinitarian viewpoint.

Therefore you referred to Romans 11:36 to tie in the " of " statement to the LORD JEHOVAH as qouted by Paul from ISAIAH 40:13. Thus you then make the tenuous link in thought that Jesus is this LORD JEHOVAH referred to in Romans and is thus spoken of in the same terms namely that all things are " of " this Lord.

However, as Earnest pointed out , Paul also quotes ISAIAH 40:13 again at 1 Cor. 2:16 but adds the thought that although we don't know the Mind of the LORD we DO Know the Mind of the Christ.

Thus the clear inferrence is that the Lord Jehovah spoken of here is not referring to the Christ. Therefore once again Jesus does not have the phrase " of " used of him.

Therefore , whilst all things are " through" both the Father and the Son ; all things are only " of " the Father.
Unless you can show me a referrence to Jesus with "of all things" as I already asked.

The point being that in 1 Cor. 8: 5,6 Paul clearly outlines his Theology here.

The Father is God, the Source of Life; the Son is Lord i.e. the Agent of Creation who will rule it for the Father as the Messianic King.

"OF" such a small word but yet such a large meaning !

regards

Dean.

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 10

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