by Panda 76 Replies latest social current
Simon, sometimes your cynicism is just sad. In a battle ground, nobody "knows" anything to any high degree of certainty. The soldiers did the best job they knew how. There didn't happen to be the resistance the were prepared for. The mission was successful. Sure, it may not be the most exciting rescue in the history of warfare, but to accuse soldiers of putting on a show is just over the top. They did what they were trained to do. You have absolutely no evidence that they did anything more.
rem
Can't people read?
I am not accusing soldiers of putting on a show ... I doubt they would come up with a stunt like this. They were simply following orders.
What I am saying is that the whole episode was media spin and manipulation by the pentagon / bumpsfelt etc ... It came at a time when the war effort has suffered some setbacks and they seriously needed some good, positive news. What better than the dramatic rescue of a pretty young female?
Yes, I can read:
According to some sources:
The doctors told us that the day before the special forces swooped on the hospital the Iraqi military had fled. Hassam Hamoud, a waiter at a local restaurant, said he saw the American advance party land in the town. He said the team's Arabic interpreter asked him where the hospital was. "He asked: 'Are there any Fedayeen over there?' and I said, 'No'." All the same, the next day "America's finest warriors" descended on the building.
"We heard the noise of helicopters," says Dr Anmar Uday. He says that they must have known there would be no resistance. "We were surprised. Why do this? There was no military, there were no soldiers in the hospital.
"It was like a Hollywood film. They cried, 'Go, go, go', with guns and blanks and the sound of explosions. They made a show - an action movie like Sylvester Stallone or Jackie Chan, with jumping and shouting, breaking down doors." All the time with the camera rolling. The Americans took no chances, restraining doctors and a patient who was handcuffed to a bed frame.
rem
Simon,
Dam* your posting limits...man they get in the way of a good debate sometimes.
Anyhow...here we go...
"vehicles from the 507th Maintenance Ordnance Company were accidentally sent in the wrong direction" Well, yeah, that's pretty obvious...the Captain in the lead vehicle should have been dismissed...If you wish to criticize this affair...criticize the military for protecting the idiot that got them lost in the first place...the Captain."When I look back on that day, I can see the trouble we were headed for from miles away. Minute by minute, hour by hour, it was obvious it would end that way," one soldier who was part of the convoy told ABCNEWS. To which you asked "why keep going" It's because in the military...we follow orders even when they're wrong...A commander once told me...yes, if an officer tells you to go jump in a lake, you have the right to come to me and protest...but you better darn well be dripping wet when you get here" Again...the Captain is the culprit...and this IS a fault in the US military...protecting the officers too much.
Her rescue will go down as one of the most stunning pieces of news management yet conceived. It provides a remarkable insight into the real influence of Hollywood producers on the Pentagon's media managers, and has produced a template from which America hopes to present its future wars. And this brilliant piece of information is based on what facts? Oh, sorry, it's based on opinion. Seems to me that it was the media played this us (darned inbedded reporters) I don't recall the military hyping it other than saying it was a great thing.
I am accusnig the pentagon and the administration of news management and manipulation. I doubt very much whether the actual people on the ground woudl be told the truth - that would be far too risky. The people "on the ground" are the ones that developed the intelligence...so by saying this was a fake..you accuse them of lying. Did the administration and pentegon try to make mileage out of this? SURE...but I don't remember them saying anything that was proven to be an outright lie...do you?
Now, I wonder why we've only seen edited highlights? It's called SECURITY Simon...let's show EXACTLY how we operate in real combat situations so the enemy knows and can counter our tactics.
The doctors told us that the day before the special forces swooped on the hospital the Iraqi military had fled. And the US forces were suppossed to know this because?Hassam Hamoud, a waiter at a local restaurant, said he saw the American advance party land in the town. He said the team's Arabic interpreter asked him where the hospital was. "He asked: 'Are there any Fedayeen over there?' and I said, 'No'." All the same, the next day "America's finest warriors" descended on the building. OK you trust someone who may or may not be the enemy...and may or may not have lied. The town was not secure...there were still combat operations going on. There was no way to verify the information unless they physically went to the building...and this guy could be lying.
"We heard the noise of helicopters," says Dr Anmar Uday. He says that they must have known there would be no resistance. And they must of known this because???? An Iraqi that might have himself been Fedeyeen said so? "We were surprised. Why do this? There was no military, there were no soldiers in the hospital. Why do this...because it's STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURES in combat to assume the enemy is there until you physically have boots on the ground...remember...more than once in this war the Fedeyeen had lied to the US forces...ambushed them...tricked them...so we should just trust some Iraqi in Civilian Clothes??
"It was like a Hollywood film. BOGUS! They cried, 'Go, go, go', with guns and blanks and the sound of explosions. BLANKS? OH he means the FLASH/BANG grenades that are used in situations like this...When entering an unsecured building a Flash/Bang is tossed into rooms. It does just what it sounds like...makes a brilliant flash and a loud bang that disorients the occupants of the room. This accusation of "blanks is BOGUS...but of course the leftist Guardian loves that kind of stuff. They made a show - an action movie like Sylvester Stallone or Jackie Chan, with jumping and shouting, breaking down doors." Yep, they did the mission just like they were trained to do it. All the time with the camera rolling. STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE. The Americans took no chances, restraining doctors and a patient who was handcuffed to a bed frame. Also standard operating Procedure. There was no way of knowing who was who...civilian clothes didn't mean they weren't a threat...remember, this is the Fedeyeen tactic...and the US had been attacked from hospitals...clinics...schools. Look, when I "played" a hostage during a training mission I was flex cuffed along with the guys holding me hostage...until they could verify who I was...this is good common sense...not play acting.
Duh, no. But they knew the military had fled. They failed to point that out on the news as it would make the story less impressive wouldn't it?! And they knew this because...why exactly? Look, the Spec Ops guys develop their own intelligence...in a manuever like this you HAVE TO assume there are enemy on the ground.
I am not accusing soldiers of putting on a show ... I doubt they would come up with a stunt like this. They were simply following orders.
Sure sounds like you're accusing them of this...Simon...these operations are planned by the cells that execute them...they analyze all the intelligence themselves...so you basically are saying they are lying.
To claim they are the most intelligent, most brave and most honest is your opinion though and nothing more. I personally doubt they are all three. People are people and I suspect the exact same mix ranging from outstanding to pond scum exists in the military just as in civilian life. No, Simon, the intelligence issue is backed by Army test scores...no dumb dumbs allowed in Special Ops...the Brave part... backed by the fact that the Spec Ops have won the highest percentage of Medals for Bravery and Honor of all the services...ok..the Honest part...that personal experience...Are there scum in Spec Ops???I've not met any...they weed most of them out in the training phase.
You're as accurate on this as you would be if you accused Prince Charles of buggering Prince Andrew...we assume that report is not true.
REM,
Nice cut and paste...do you have any original opinions?
Yeru,
Sometimes if you read more carefully you will find that I'm actually on your side. (seriously, this is at least the second time this has happened)
rem
Sorry REM, I had my battle blinders on.
Hey Simon, don't buy the book or read it, problem solved.
I think the book should be about the heroes that rescued her, the reason she was captured is because the army doesn't train each soldier to be a rifelmen. Had it been a convoy of Marines they first would have known where they were going and secondly they would have been able to defend themselves.
So the anger should be directed at the lack of adequate training of the branch of service.
You'd think they could afford to give people GPS wouldn't you? It would cost a fraction to fit them to vehicles or provide some hand-held units. They can afford to put them in missiles to have them blown to bits - I guess they don't put quite the same value on the troops eh?
I think this is a media manipulation issue rather than a military one. I guess what people want to see to settle the issue is the full footage - not the edited version.
The failures and mistakes will be forgotten and only the succeses rememberd - kind of like Dunkirk, one of the finest moments in the war, but people forget it was a terrible defeat and retreat but done in a glorious way.
Has nothing been followed up on WHY they got into the mess they did in the first place or has this been glossed over? I don't expect everyone to learn to fight and understand that support staff are needed for other things but it's pretty common sense that you keep these people away from the front-line or at least provide protection.
Sheila, all the people who were captured were trained to use their weapons. One young soldier/prisoner of war was awarded the silver star for his part in the the orginal action. He knocked down eight of the enemy before he either ran out of ammunition or his weapon jammed from all the sand in the air at the time. Pretty good shooting, in my opinion.
As far as the rescue is concerned, these folks were special forces, and they are capapable of using their rifles as well as anyone, jar heads included. Add aircraft flying overhead, army and air force, they had all they needed in the way of firepower. However, the marines were also involved as a diversion to distract the Iraqis during the mission, which may explain why none of the enemy was around.
As far as being trained as a rifleman, I was so trained as a rifleman in the Air Force back in the fifties. I understand Air Force basic trainees are still trained on the rifle range.
Simon, these people were ambushed during one of the worst sand storms in history. I'm sure they did have at least one gps device, but roads do not run due north and south so it would be easy to become confused during a sandstorm. In fact they did discover their mistake, but it was too late.
I have never heard an official from the Pentagon quoted by the news media during all of this hype you alluded to, so I suspect it was for the most part media hype. Apparently you, and others, are under the impression that a war can be fought without any mistakes or casualties. Maybe after armageddon. Bug
