I hope you weren't including me in these generalisations. I have more intelligence than that.
If the shoe fits...
Answer these questions for me:
1. Do you believe what JT said about events in the congregations where he went?
If your answer is "yes," what is the reason blacks were treated the way they were treated? Did their race have anything to do with it?
If your answer to 2b is "yes," could the same mindset exist in the minds of "worldly" managers who run companies in the real world when it comes to hiring blacks?
Is it truly a generalization when one summarizes the views of a handful of people who have made their opinions known on a topic, as opposed to projecting those views on an entire group? In my statement to JT (that you quoted), I spoke of the opinions of those who'd actually contributed to that thread, not the opinions of white Americans as a whole, whose opinions I'm really not qualified to speak of.
Does any one remember when the cong's were segregated in the South?
by Victorian sky 61 Replies latest watchtower bible
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teejay
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Prisca
1. Do you believe what JT said about events in the congregations where he went?
JT has commented on what he saw, but they are the experiences of the congregations he was in whilst a JW. They are the observations of one person, in one American State (I presume he has lived in just the one state, from what I've read).
If your answer is "yes," what is the reason blacks were treated the way they were treated? Did their race have anything to do with it?
How would I know? I wasn't in the congregation he was speaking about. And I wouldn't make generalisations based on just one man's observations. Maybe it was the prejudice of the elders in charge, or maybe the bros simply weren't qualified. How can you judge either? Or is it easier to blame everything on racism?
If your answer to 2b is "yes," could the same mindset exist in the minds of "worldly" managers who run companies in the real world when it comes to hiring blacks?
Possibly, but what exists in some company managers' minds when hiring American blacks isn't indicative of all company managers. Again, you can't blame everything on racism.
Is it truly a generalization when one summarizes the views of a handful of people who have made their opinions known on a topic, as opposed to projecting those views on an entire group?
Let's go back to your original generalisation: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/57800/856337/post.ashx#856337
because they hate JWs so much, these same friends of mine will quickly step up and agree with every bit of what you said about how horrible things are in the average JW Kingdom Hall or at Bethel.
Firstly, you presume that everyone in this "group" of "friends" all "hate" JWs. Pretty strong word, hate is. And then you presume that everyone in this "group" all act like sheep, in accepting whatever is said to us about JW issues.
See, this is where I'm not included in your generalisation. Firstly, I don't "hate" JWs. I hate the corruption and lack of love displayed by some, particularly those at the top, but I don't "hate" everyone who is a JW. Secondly, I don't necessarily agree with everything that is said on this forum. Everyone has the right to say what they like, but I don't have to blindly accept everything I read. Being in the JWs taught me not to believe everything we read, otherwise I'd still be blindly following the GB.
While doing so, they fail to realize the great chasm that exists in their minds that keeps them from making any connection whatsoever or seeing any similarity at all between what goes on in the Hall and what goes on in the world in general.
See, another generalisation! Where did anyone say something like, "Racism only exists in the JWs, but not the world"? Can you provide some proof that anyone in this "group" that you referred to cannot make this distinction? Or is it just your way of justifying that what those you disagree with are wrong, and you are absolutely correct in your views?
Teejay, if you don't like people making generalisations about topics that are close to your heart, then you have to be careful not to make generalisations yourself, lest you appear as a hypocrite.
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DanTheMan
Teejay, you never answered my question from the previous page.
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teejay
Prisca,
I asked: Do you believe what JT said about events in the congregations where he went? You said
JT has commented on what he saw, but they are the experiences of the congregations he was in whilst a JW. They are the observations of one person, in one American State (I presume he has lived in just the one state, from what I've read).
Is that a "yes, I believe what JT said"?
You said
How would I know? I wasn't in the congregation he was speaking about. And I wouldn't make generalisations based on just one man's observations. Maybe it was the prejudice of the elders in charge, or maybe the bros simply weren't qualified. How can you judge either?
It's true. You (and I) don't know if it happened as JT said, if his memory is faulty, if he was/is biased himself, or if he made it all up. That why I asked what you "believe." Do you? Believe what JT said?
Or is it easier to blame everything on racism?
First, I think it's important to get to whether or not his portrayal is accurate. Then we can go from there.
what exists in some company managers' minds when hiring American blacks isn't indicative of all company managers. Again, you can't blame everything on racism.
I was only talking about a mindset, which includes racist views. If -- and I say IF -- it happened / happens in the KH as JT claims, could "worldly" people have those same views? That's all I'm askin'.
Let's go back to your original generalization... you presume that everyone in this "group" of "friends" all "hate" JWs. Pretty strong word, hate is. And then you presume that everyone in this "group" all act like sheep, in accepting whatever is said to us about JW issues.
Good point. I shouldn't have assumed that every ex-JW would quickly agree with JT's experience and I shouldn't have used the word "hate." (I was only making a point. I'm an ex-JW myself and I don't hate JWs.) I'd like to take that back and extend apologies to any that I offended, including you Prisca.
So (again) tell me... do you believe JT's experience? Either you do or you don't.
You didn't answer the last question I asked earlier, so I'll do so again:
If--and I say IF-- JT's experience is true and blacks were unfairly treated in the congos where he's been, could the same mindset that existed in the minds of white brothers who did the mistreating also exist in the minds of "worldly" white managers when it came to their treatment of minorities? Not "does it exist" but "COULD it exist." -
teejay
No, DanTheMan, I was never at Bethel. Never even visited the place.
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Prisca
I don't "believe" what JT says, but I accept his word for it. That is his observation, his recollection of how events happened. But being open minded, whilst I accept what he says, if someone came along who was there at the same time and says something different, then I would weigh up the available evidence as to whose observations I would accept as being more accurate.
If--and I say IF-- JT's experience is true and blacks were unfairly treated in the congos where he's been, could the same mindset that existed in the minds of white brothers who did the mistreating also exist in the minds of "worldly" white managers when it came to their treatment of minorities? Not "does it exist" but "COULD it exist."
Bit of a no-brainer there Teej. "Could" means anything has a possibility of happening. Yes, racism exists in some people, whether they are black, white or yellow.
If a black manager had both a white candidate for employment, and a black one, who do you think he would employ?
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DanTheMan
OK, I was just trying to find out if you were qualified to refer to JT's allegations of discrimination at Bethel as being exaggerated.
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teejay
I don't "believe" what JT says, but I accept his word for it. That is his observation, his recollection of how events happened.
Thank you, Prisca. That's all I wanted -- your opinion of what he's related. Personally, I believe him. I have no reason not to.
Yes, racism exists in some people, whether they are black, white or yellow.
Again... thanks. That's all I wanted -- an acknowledgment that sometimes it isn't the lack of education or the lack of a work ethic or anything else that keeps a black person from getting the job. Just skin color.
If a black manager had both a white candidate for employment, and a black one, who do you think he would employ?
To a (very) small degree, it depends on the manager.
A few Afro-centric managers may indeed favor the black applicant over the white one. But that's not very likely to happen, for two reasons.
For one, the black manager's actions would be under review by someone higher up, and that person is likely to be white. Secondly, studies have shown that when it comes to doing business -- everything being equal -- due to their life-long programming blacks are just like whites and tend to do and WANT to do business with white people because they consider whites more competent and trustworthy.
Sad, but true. Media imagery is effective even when it goes against one's own best interests. -
JT
For one, the black manager's actions would be under review by someone higher up, and that person is likely to be white. Secondly, studies have shown that when it comes to doing business -- everything being equal -- due to their life-long programming blacks are just like whites and tend to do and WANT to do business with white people because they consider whites more competent and trustworthy.
Sad, but true.yep so true, sometime when a black person is in a position to hire, one would assume that they perhaps would hire the black person, yet if you talk to black folks they will tell you over and over that sometimes in an effort to not look like they are showing favoritism they will hire the white person instead-
sad but so true
this is why the entire racial thing is so sad-
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Prisca
Again... thanks. That's all I wanted -- an acknowledgment that sometimes it isn't the lack of education or the lack of a work ethic or anything else that keeps a black person from getting the job. Just skin color.
Well, sometimes it is racism, but I'm not going to buy into your theory that white people and racism is to blame whenever a black person gets passed over for a job promotion or whatever. Using the race card is a cop-out, and automatically highlights your own racist programming, in that you automatically assume the worst.