Creation, evolution, ???

by Freedom rocks 77 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • DesirousOfChange

    Because that still dosent explain where we came from. So we evolved from monkeys.

    Where did the monkeys come from and the thing they evolved from and so on and so forth....

    An explosion? Seems bit far fetched to me.

    I dont know where we came from

    So the "creationist's" view is that we "came from God".

    But where did God come from?

    How come a creationist will believe that a supernatural, omnipotent, all-powerful, all-knowing "God" came from nowhere -- from "nothing"? But any other form of simple life on up to human life had to have a "designer"?


  • waton
    So you believe a random explosion (Big Bang) caused evolution, logical processes, laws of physics and even your own consciousness?
    That is quite a belief!

    well, thank you, it is not so much of a belief, but a resume of the sciences as we see it.

    There is no evidence of supernatural tinkering (miracles) so: all we have is the result of natural processes, all that came in the package served in the Big Beginning, energy, matter, law and spacetime.

    Abiogenesis, evolution all already build in,-- as potentials. The Universe on autopilot. Emergence of the successful.

    Time, energy as infinite, are beyond our horizon, our understanding, are fundamental.

  • ttdtt

    Where did god come from?
    You have no issue not knowing that, but you have an issue with not knowing where the universe came from.

    god lives in Heaven with all his good peeps now, right?
    Did Heaven exist forever?
    Did god build heaven?
    If he did, why, was he unhappy?
    When did he build heaven?

    god made all the little angels.
    Why? Was he unhappy alone?
    If he was, how long did he wait to make them?
    Was he unhappy alone for a long time?
    Why did he wait so long to make them?

    god has been around forever?
    If he was, how did we ever get to now?
    If he was around for an eternity before us, how could we ever get to now?

    Dont say god made time, that is a silly answer.
    Was there a time before he made heaven?
    Was there time between making JC and the other angels?
    Was there a time between each angle being made?
    Was there time between the last angel and the universe being made?

  • Perry
    There is no evidence of supernatural tinkering (miracles) so: all we have is the result of natural processes, all that came in the package served in the Big Beginning, energy, matter, law and spacetime.


    A reasonable person could just as easily turn this around on you and state the there is no evidence of explosions creating order, information, physical laws, consciousness etc. In fact current, present (real science) experiments indicate just the opposite of what you believe.

    You are believing something that has no basis whatsoever in observable/testable science. That is a testable statement of fact. All we have to do is examine all the explosions ever recorded, maybe do a few explosions of our own (that feature of the experiment alone would make the exercise worthwhile :-) ); and then see how many of the things that you hypothesize came into existence from the original explosion, happened in our test samples.

    You call your belief system a "resume of sciences". I would challenge you to examine any scientific data and present it here that would indicate that explosions can create anything other than a mess, much less physical laws, information like DNA and consciousness and intelligence.

    Now, I don't have the slightest problem with you or anyone else believing anything you want. That is called freedom. The belief system that you subscribe to is called naturalism or materialism. There are laws that govern this belief system as well. But, just don't call it science.

    I personally subscribe to a creation model. When shopping for a worldview after leaving the Watchtower, I suspended judgment for a few years and took the time to examine evidence that I personally could test. I found that creation was a much better fit of known facts:

    1. Life always comes from previous life

    2. Information always comes from a mind

    3. Random explosions always create chaos and not order

    4. Laws always come from a lawgiver

    Based on these facts, I then proceeded to believe in an original Life, Mind & Lawgiver. This is my assumption for interpreting the world. It is not science, but your explosion theory is not science either. I have come to the conclusion that it takes infinitely more faith to believe in a everything-from-a-random-explosion event, than it does to believe in an original intelligence. Either way, both require assumptions.... in other words, religion.

    The best we can do is to determine which assumption better fits known facts.

    - Just my opinion of course.

  • waton
    Was there a time before he made heaven?

    time is fundamental, It is the 1st dimension it exists whether something is happening in it or not.

    That we can not understand that,-- really, just shows our limitations. But you can do it in math: just lay an eight on its side

  • ttdtt

    Perry you are so full of bullshit.

    1. Life always comes from previous life

    Is god alive? You are fine with him breaking all your rules.

    Funny how you never answer any of my questions.

    I LOVE how the default position to my questions are often (we can not understand bla bla bla), but its NOT ok to say - we don't understand what caused the big bang, or the first instance of life completely.

    Religion is all bullshit and totally indefensible.
    Its always "I know you are but what am I"

    P.S. I dont need "Faith" to believe in Gravity, Electricity, X-Rays, Vaccines...

    Religion is a snare and a racket.

    Religion is the opium of the people.

  • Vidiot

    Personally, I think that all the debate about evolution's veracity and plausibility is moot.

    The real reason creationists reject it is because (to varying degrees) they've made their cosmology dependent on the Eden narrative in Genesis being literal history.

  • Perry


    Of course creationists posit an uncaused Cause. This is called an assumption. So, there is no reason to claim that you are just now figuring this out. It has always been so. (And no one is claiming that this is testable science. )

    Gen. 1:1 makes this clear. “In the beginning (time) God”. He is assumed to be self existing.

    The rest of the verse : created the heavens (three dimensional space) and the earth (matter).

    So, from the very first verse in the Bible a person can ascertain that God is self existing and brought time, space and matter into existence simultaneously.

    But, Waton claims something just as religious (if not more) when he believes that an uncaused explosion created Laws, intelligence, vast information, and consciousness. This is his chosen religion. And, it is his right and should not be disparaged by us for his choice.

    But as I pointed out, his belief is not science. It is an assumption.

  • cofty

    Creationists have lost the argument regarding biological evolution so they muddy the waters by conflating evolution, abiogenesis and cosmic origins.

    Evolution is a fact. Get over it.

  • waton
    an uncaused explosion created Laws, intelligence, vast information, and consciousness.

    In this debate about evolution, creation and --implied, the start of organic life, my belief as a deist has to be that it all had to be made possible by the conditions at the beginning of spacetime, mattertime as I call it, because that matter had a previous embodiment as energy.

    I doubt it was uncaused, and out of truly nothing, because serious thinkers recognize pre- Big Bang conditions, From Dirac's sea to Penrose, to the current hypothesis of virtual particles popping in and out existence in the void.

    It is obviously a great workshop. we live in an exceptional well turned out little work sample. wirklich.

    Evolution is a fact. Get over it.

    Yes, The signs of our evolutionary history are written in our DNA, but our ingenuity in uncovering our past does not prove, it does not automatically follow, that --the current species, life, or the universe made itself. 4 billion years is short compared to an infinite, significant past.

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