Liberal vs. Democrat in the U.S.A.

by OnTheWayOut 42 Replies latest jw friends

  • MeanMrMustard


    I know you said you didn’t want to discuss each topic, but you did mention generally:

    I believe in socialist policies on schools and healthcare and an equalizing in both areas.

    And this:

    Mainly, I am a liberal because I believe that laws and budgets should put people first.

    And this:

    Socialism has not worked in the world because true socialism has not existed. In current socialisms, some people are more "equal" than others.

    Socialism will never work, no matter how it is tried. Prices, profits, losses, entrepreneurship, and interest rates all perform very important functions. The extent to which those mechanisms are undermined is the extent to which you end up with the effects you decry.

    I think your post is a good one - but consider that I do believe you when you say you want people put first. I believe that you want to help people. But also consider that if someone in the right disagrees with you, they don’t mean to imply they are against people raising their standard of living.

    To put it more concisely: I believe the economic effects of policies you favor will, in fact, undermine the same effects you wish those policies to accomplish.

    Socialism can’t calculate. And half socialist programs can calculate better, but not great:

  • em1913

    America is a one-party -- the Capitalist Party -- state, and has been since the end of World War II. There are merely two wings to that party that differ very little on the main purpose, but these wings, and the personality-oriented bickering they create, produce an effective illusion of two-party democracy. Any party or group that disagrees with the real status quo is suppressed by ballot-access laws.

    The Judge was right about one thing: politics, commerce, and religion, all in bed together, really do rule the world to the detriment of humanity. And they will continue to do so until enough people get fed up and tip the bed over.

  • Simon
    Socialism has not worked in the world because true socialism has not existed. In current socialisms, some people are more "equal" than others.

    Ah, the old "it will work this time" notion or "well, all those utter failures weren't really socialism's fault (while I blame every ill on capitalism)".

    The reality is that socialism always fails because the idealistic ideology doesn't take into account human motivations and fails to control them (actually provides for systems of gross injustice and unfairness) whereas capitalism tends to align with them and as long as they are controlled can benefit from them and channel them into benefits for all.

    There are a number of reasons that socialism fails but it boils down to stopping the 10-20% of people responsible for output in most systems from being motivated to create and produce.

    The massive improvements in world conditions in the last 200 years are down to capitalism. It delivers results unlike any socialist system ever. Period. People just have to get 'over' the fact that for the better system to exist, some people will become wealthier than others. But the notion that the 1% or 10% is fixed is wrong - there is actually a lot of churn of wealth, more than many imagine, with a much larger proportion spending some of their life in the top tier and wealth not always sustained across generations.

    Socialism typically produces misery and death. That's not hyperbole, it really does - more people have died in Venezuela than have been killed in Syria for instance. Does that get reported by any socialist leaning news groups? Of course not ... it's endless wall-to-wall pro-socialist propaganda and chearleading.

    Now you have a failed political movement doing the typical trick - promising free everything! Healthcare, education, even housing - it can and should all be free! And the people promising everything have as little understanding of basic economics as you imagine it is possible to have.

    It's a path to ruin. First economic, and then social. For anyone unhappy at gun ownership, this is a prime example of why no one in their right mind would give up their weapons when there is a party spewing nonsense like this because one day they may well be needed.

    And you also seem to mix up socialism and liberalism. The most liberal countries are capitalist because they see people as potential customers. Socialism is usually all about controlling people and seeing them as resources to be used by the state system, not individuals who want to live their life however they want.

    The remit of government should be to ensure markets operate fairly, to provide law and order and defence and to protect against the damage that a focus on short-term profits alone could do (e.g. environmental) and to invest in shared infrastructure (roads, rail etc...). On the whole, more government and more state control of things like education creates worse results and opportunities for people to enrich themselves from the bureaucracy - and like most organizations, there is then a tendency for the government to protect itself so it becomes harder to root out such things.

    Elect a leftist government and you get back-door socialism - an ever expanding 'welfare state' to create an underclass of voters, open borders to import more people looking for handouts to bulk up the system and the votes to perpetuate it and falling economies while the people at the top enrich themselves.

    No thank you.

    It's more liberal and caring for people to want a system that works for all, not just a very select few.

  • blownaway

    Not true OP. You have conflated a lot of things. First off today's socialist/communist Democrat party is not the Democrat party of your grand daddy. FDR put the Japanese into camps for security. It was a good move because of how beholding to the mother land they were. It is like keeping people quarantined if they were exposed to virus. Do they all have it no but you have to see. Today's Dems are communist / socialist. If you vote for todays Dems you are voting for open boarders, illegal immigration, gay and lesbian [I am not against this part but its a plank] demonizing corporations, bashing America as the culture of evil white people who took land from the Indians who were all sining Kumbya around camp fires before, letting men who "identify" as women take a dump with your 12 yo daughter, letting in Muslims who do not assimilate and hate America as much as Democrats, anti 2nd Amendment anti gun period, Abortion on demand even as its dropping out of the womb, anti Christian, [I am an atheist but they hate Christians. ] To name but a few of the crazy crazy shit these idiots believe. If you vote for one this is what you are voting for. The Blue dog Dems have been pushed to Republicans, they have been kicked out, See Alexandria Ortega. I don't agree with several planks of the Republican party but I till take them over the current Dems any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

  • LongHairGal


    Thanks for telling it like it is, no matter how crude or unpleasant it is. This will BE the outcome if it all went Democrat/Socialist.

    What a f#cking nightmare! You and Simon are right in everything you say.

  • _Morpheus

    Lol i love the “oh communism failed because we didnt try hard enough!”


    its failed everywhere, everytime. At some point one has to look at the variables and realize that, no matter what changes, the one constant is the philosphy. It fails. Everytime. Its me, its you. Not only does it fail it proves to be brutal and repressive to all.

    Without exception, commies build walls to keep their subjects in. People flee communism. Free societies have to build walls for protection. Nobody wants to leave, because those who wish to leave are free to at anytime.

    None of this is rocket science.

  • Apostate Anonymous
    Apostate Anonymous


    I'm always fascinated by this claim that Democrats are socialists or communists. I've seen this thrown around quite a bit on this board. Can you provide any evidence of this claim? I'd love to see it

    Also, you realize that there is a difference between socialists and communists right?

  • Simon
    Can you provide any evidence of this claim? I'd love to see it

    Their platform is basically wealth redistribution, taking from those who have and giving it to those who do not with no regard to why some people have and some do not.

    When you have candidates being touted as the next big thing in the party who are promising people free houses as a right ... that's grade A socialism.

    Communism is just a more extreme form of socialism. There are some things that make sense to be socialized - roads for example. But on the whole socialism is just a stepping stone to communism although everything usually falls apart well before that point unless it's a strong dictatorship.

    The wheels always come off the wagon with socialism and there's no brakes.

  • Apostate Anonymous
    Apostate Anonymous

    Socialism can only become Communism through a violent revolution though. Socialists hold onto this idea that their vision can be accomplished through mechanisms of the state. Such as reforms. They think the current system can slowly be reformed to fir their vision. Communists believe their ideal society can only be accomplished once the entire system has been flipped over on its head through a violent revolution. I've noticed that people are SUPER triggered by Alexandria Cortez recently. Even within the Democratic establishment. That is because through and through, the Democratic party still supports Capitalism. Alexandria Cortez doesn't mention anywhere in her platform that she wants to abolish Capitalism, but the right-wingers are all kinds of triggered over her (ironic considering they fling that expression at anyone to the left of trump)

  • LoveUniHateExams

    Socialism can only become Communism through a violent revolution though - Marx himself realised this ... a violent revolution would unfortunately be necessary in order to facilitate societal change.

    That's Karl Marx - revered by communists and socialists alike.

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