Is the FACT that no God/god ever communicates with humans evidence that no God/god exists?

by Disillusioned JW 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    PaddyTheBaddy (and others), I use the philosophical arguments in disproof of the existence of a god in forums in which there are those who believe in the existence of a god partly due to philosophical arguments.There are many Christians who are convinced that God does answer prayers (not just their own prayers, but anyone's prayers). Telling them the argument of divine hiddenness might help some of them to realize that a personal god does not exist.

    My motivations are likely similar to those of Thomas Paine in regards to why he wrote the Age of Reason (except he believed in a deistic god and hoped for an afterlife, though he did not belief everyone receives an afterlife) and why Victor J. Stenger wrote his books which promote atheism. I also appreciate that Richard Dawkins wrote his The God Delusion book. Interestingly Dawkins' book has become extremely popular in Arabic speaking countries, so much so that Dawkins decided to give away free downloads of his book in Arabic, Urdu, Farsi and Indonesian.

    See https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/mar/20/richard-dawkins-to-give-away-copies-of-the-god-delusion-in-islamic-countries . It says the following.

    'Richard Dawkins is responding to what he called the “stirring towards atheism” in some Islamic countries with a programme to make free downloads of his books available in Arabic, Urdu, Farsi and Indonesian.

    The scientist and atheist said he was “greatly encouraged” to learn that the unofficial Arabic pdf of the book had been downloaded 13m times. Dawkins writes in The God Delusion about his wish that the “open-minded people” who read it will “break free of the vice of religion altogether”. It has sold 3.3m copies worldwide since it was published in 2006 – far fewer than the number of Arabic copies that Dawkins believes to have been downloaded illegally.'

    In addition to the above quote please see https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/03/13/translators-aim-bring-richard-dawkinss-books-atheism-evolution-muslim-audience/ . It says the following.

    '... a group of translators wants to get Dawkins’s books in front of a new group of religious readers: Muslim readers, in Muslim-majority countries where atheism is rare.

    “If you get enough people to talk about these ideas, if you convince people it’s okay to think about religion, to criticize religion — if you get a critical mass of people, you can probably change something, change the situation in these countries. … It’s a bit ambitious, but maybe not impossible,” said Jana Lenzova, director of the translation project. “I don’t mind what other people are, but I think they should have access to all the information so they can make up their own minds.”

    ... The translation project was Dawkins’s idea, inspired, he said, by two conversations he had — with a man who had translated “The God Delusion” into Arabic and claimed his illicit work was downloaded even more times than the number of copies the English bestseller sold and with a woman in Saudi Arabia who left her faith, her family and her country after reading the book.'

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    In chapter one of Victor Stenger's book called GOD: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows that God Does Not Exist, the very first argument he uses is under the heading of "Lack of Evidence". In that section he says the following.

    "... as we saw in the preface, the overwhelming majority of prominent American scientists has concluded that God does not exist. If God exists, where is he? Philosopher Theodore Drange has termed this the lack-of-evidence-argument, .... Stenger later says that "... the very existence existence of nonbelievers in the world who have not resisted such belief [in God] is evidence against his existence. The problem of divine hiddenness is one that has taxed the abilities of theologians over the years--almost as much as the problem of evil ...."

    Chapter 9 of the book is called "Possible and Impossible Gods" and one section of it has the heading of "The Hiddeness Problem". In that section Stenger refers to the hiddenness problem in the form of the argument stated in handouts by Schellenberg. At the end of the section Stenger says the following.

    "The hiddenness problem relates most directly to the scientific arguments I have presented. If the theist attempts to refute my conclusions by claiming that God intentionally hides himself from us, then that God cannot be the personal, perfect loving God of liberal Christianity. However, there is another brand of Christian God." The very next statement in the chapter is the heading called "The Hideous Hidden God of Evangelical Christianity". In that section he paraphrases the statement of an evangelical (named Jeff Cook) as saying "...God does not wish to spend eternity with all human souls, but only the chosen few who, by blind faith in absence of all evidence, accept a Jewish carpenter who may or may not have lived two thousand years ago as their personal savior." The last paragraph of that section (and also of the chapter) says the following.

    "The existence of the Catholic, evangelical, extreme Muslim, extreme Judaic God who hides himself from all but a selected elite cannot be totally ruled out. All I can say is that we have not one iota of evidence that he exists and, if he does exist, I personally want nothing to do with him. This is a possible god, but a hideous one."

    To me, Stenger's GOD: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows that God Does Not Exist book makes a vastly stronger case against believing in God than Dawkins' The God Delusion book.

  • PaddyTheBaddy
    PaddyTheBaddy
    In chapter one of Victor Stenger's book called GOD: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows that God Does Not Exist, the very first argument he uses is under the heading of "Lack of Evidence". In that section he says the following.
    "... as we saw in the preface, the overwhelming majority of prominent American scientists has concluded that God does not exist. If God exists, where is he? Philosopher Theodore Drange has termed this the lack-of-evidence-argument, .... Stenger later says that "... the very existence existence of nonbelievers in the world who have not resisted such belief [in God] is evidence against his existence. The problem of divine hiddenness is one that has taxed the abilities of theologians over the years--almost as much as the problem of evil ...."

    Just because someone is a non believer at one point in time doesn't mean he or she is destined to an eternity of disbelief. Tom didn't believe until he got some blood on his hands. Maybe there is a time and a place for non resistant unbelievers to get what the are looking for.

    It doesn't surprise me that most scientists don't believe in the existence of God especially if this is primarily due to a lack of scientific evidence proving his existence. Science looks to understand the workings of the material world and everything in it. It can't make any definitive statements about anything non material which may or may not exist, for the simple reason that it doesn't have access to anything outside of the material world.

    If the material world has always existed, (that means it's eternal in the past) in one form or another, that solves the problem and science potentially will be able to explain everything. If however, matter hasn't existed eternally and came into existence, then it potentially came from a non material source. Matter can't bring matter into existence if it doesn't exist. This doesn't get you to God but it does get you to a non material reality.

    So God isn't the explanation for why the apple fell from the tree, science can tell you that. God is the potential explanation for why the apple and tree exist in the first place.

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