Is the FACT that no God/god ever communicates with humans evidence that no God/god exists?

by Disillusioned JW 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Is the FACT that no God/god ever communicates with us evidence that no God/god exists? I think it is very strong evidence that no personal God/god exits, especially a benevolent God who wants humans to know him him/her/it, to obey him/her/it, and/or to love him/her/it. Since no God/god communicates to us (including those who sincerely want communication with the/a God/god), wouldn't it be sensible for those who pray to what they believe is the/a God/god to cease all efforts to communicate to a God/god? I believe so.

    Some people make the claim that God, a god, or some spirit being has communicated to them and/or to some ancient people, but they have no proof of their claim. But, others disagree with that conclusion of mine. Personally, when I was on the verge of becoming completely convinced of atheism I prayed to the concept of God (both to the biblical Jehovah God, to Jesus Christ, and to the concept of an unknown god) asking that he/she/it/them provide me with evidence of the sort which God (if God exists and is all knowing) knows would convince me of God's existence. I never received such evidence despite searching thoroughly to see if such evidence exists. I thus became convinced there is no God - no personal god/God at all and very very probably no non-personal conscious God either. Even though I am now a convinced atheist, I still on occasion examine and study purported evidence that the/a God/god exits, but I still see no convincing evidence of the existence of the/a God/god. I see no more evidence for a Christian Trinity, Yahweh Elohim (Jehovah God), or a supernatural Jesus Christ than I do for any of gods (including goddesses) of ancient (or current) paganism. But, I do see scientific evidence that not even the creator god of deism exists.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_nonbelief says the following.

    "An argument from nonbelief is a philosophical argument that asserts an inconsistency between the existence of God and a world in which people fail to recognize him. It is similar to the classic argument from evil in affirming an inconsistency between the world that exists and the world that would exist if God had certain desires combined with the power to see them through.

    There are two key varieties of the argument. The argument from reasonable nonbelief (or the argument from divine hiddenness) was first elaborated in J. L. Schellenberg's 1993 book Divine Hiddenness and Human Reason. This argument says that if God existed (and was perfectly good and loving) every reasonable person would have been brought to believe in God; however, there are reasonable nonbelievers; therefore, this God does not exist."

    https://ndpr.nd.edu/reviews/the-hiddenness-argument-philosophys-new-challenge-to-belief-in-god/ contains an article called "The Hiddenness Argument: Philosophy's New Challenge to Belief in God". It discusses J. L. Schellenberg's book called The Hiddenness Argument: Philosophy's New Challenge to Belief in God, published by Oxford University Press, 2015, 142pp., $35.00 (hbk), ISBN 9780198733089. The article says the following.

    "J.L. Schellenberg's book is an attempt to spell out his well-known argument from divine hiddenness against theism patiently and systematically so that anyone can understand it. ... I think it is largely successful. The average person on the street can pick up this book, and a trim 142 pages later, they'll understand what the hiddenness argument is and why it is for many an important piece of evidence against theism.

    Since the exact terms of Schellenberg's argument (though not the spirit) have changed a bit over the years, let's begin by quoting the version given in the book.

    1. If a perfectly loving God exists, then there exists a God who is always open to a personal relationship with any finite person.
    2. If there exists a God who is always open to a personal relationship with any finite person, then no finite person is ever nonresistantly in a state of nonbelief in relation to the proposition that God exists.
    3. If a perfectly loving God exists, then no finite person is ever nonresistantly in a state of nonbelief in relation to the proposition that God exists (from 1 and 2).
    4. Some finite persons are or have been nonresistantly in a state of nonbelief in relation to the proposition that God exists.
    5. No perfectly loving God exists (from 3 and 4).
    6. If no perfectly loving God exists, then God does not exist.
    7. God does not exist (from 5 and 6) (Schellenberg 103)"

    To me, the atheistic argument of divine hiddenness is a stronger philosophical argument against the existence of a personal god, than the philosophical argument from the existence of evil.

  • truth_b_known
    truth_b_known

    Some people make the claim that God, a god, or some spirit being has communicated to them or to ancient people, but they have no proof of their claim.

    What proof do you want? It must be measured, weighed, and labeled to prove existence is left-minded thinking, which is the very road block one must get past to find the proof you seek.

    Furthermore, for someone to say "There is no God. There has to be some logical/scientific explanation for all things," is in itself a proof that such belief is based on faith. Faith is the cornerstone of religion.

    Rather, to state "I have found no evidence of God. I will change my belief in God when I find evidence that suggest that," is a statement of open mindedness. It shows a person is capable of learning and growing. Of course, if you're not looking for proof how would you ever find it?

    How does one prove God spoke to them? Isn't that a personal experience? I suppose that is the point. People are looking for some sort of intellectual explanation which is impossible. The only way to find it is through personal experience.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    What do you by "existence is left-minded thinking"? Do you mean the concept of existence (not existence itself) is left-minded thinking? Do you think left-minded thinking is a false kind of thinking?

    Why do you say "There is no God. There has to be some logical/scientific explanation for all things," is in itself a proof that such belief is based on faith.' ? I didn't say (and I don't believe) that in order for all kinds of things to exist there must must be some logical/scientific explanation for their existence known to us. But in the case of a loving personal god who wants people to know him and to worship him, if such a God exists then the evidence for such a God must exist, and if the evidence does not exist then the God doesn't exist. The scientist, professor, and philosopher named Victor J. Stenger (a deceased atheist of the New Atheism movement) correctly said that absence of evidence is evidence of absence when the evidence should be there but isn't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God:_The_Failed_Hypothesis says ' David Ludden of Skeptic magazine wrote that "Stenger lays out the evidence from cosmology, astrophysics, nuclear physics, particle physics, statistical mechanics and quantum mechanics showing that the universe appears exactly as it should if there is no creator." '

  • a watcher
    a watcher

    Just because God never communicates with you doesn't mean He doesn't communicate with others.

  • PaddyTheBaddy
    PaddyTheBaddy

    Is the FACT that no God/god ever communicates with us evidence that no God/god exists?

    No, if true? it still has nothing to do with evidence for the existence of God. As he could exist but choose not to communicate. It is more related to evidence for your dissatisfaction in how he may or may not communicate with you personally.

  • truth_b_known
    truth_b_known

    "Left-minded" or "left-brained" is referring to that part of human though the operates in the realm of the concept of the physical universe. If it can me measured, if it can be weighed, if it can labeled that portion of human thinking accepts it. Left-brained thinking also tends to be dismissive of right-brained thinking.

    Right-brained thinking is that which we recognize, but cannot put into words of put our finger on whether literally or figuratively. It is also the realm of intuition. That is why persons who have certain experiences of a divine nature have trouble putting that experience in words.

    As far as the Failed Hypothesis, I totally agree -

    Stenger believes we have more than enough evidence of absence of the Judeo-Christian God. He adds that many arguments for God that were once compelling are now weak or irrelevant in light of modern scientific understanding. Stenger does not think we should be dogmatic about disbelief in God, but says the evidence is overwhelmingly against the belief.

    Any evidence/experience one can obtain about God will not line up with the concepts of the Bible.

  • waton
    waton

    communications with/ from a creator may have forms that relate to our endeavors.

    Einstein imagined that he was in a kind of hide and seek contest with "der Alte" (the eternal one) about the still hidden laws with which the deity governs the universe. so

    perhaps a hidden, non-biblical message is waiting for you.

    keep on searching and you will find, if you are worthy.

  • mickbobcat
    mickbobcat

    No its not. Lack of evidence is not evidence.

  • PaddyTheBaddy
    PaddyTheBaddy
    6. If no perfectly loving God exists, then God does not exist.

    This premise just indicates that Schellenberg's personal idea or definition of what a perfectly loving God must be, doesn't exist. It doesn't logically follow that God does not exist, as there are other definitions or ideas of what a loving God is.

    Some philosophers conclude that God may exist but can't be all loving, all powerful and all knowing. He can only ever be two of the three. So you could have a God who is all powerful and all knowing but doesn't care to know you. Others claim he must be unlimited in order for the concept to have any real explanatory power.

    Any attempt at providing evidence for the existence of God, depends upon getting the right definition of who or what God is, correct first.

  • pistolpete
    pistolpete

    God exists for the people who say he communicates with them.

    God DOESN'T exists for the people who say he NEVER communicates with them.

    Nothing anyone says can change either of their minds.

    Only the individual can change his view.

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