Ten Commandments in Courthouse (page 3)

Utopiano Reformato

KGB:

I can tell you understand and appreciate fairness and equality and desire freedom of representation. But, in effect and in principle, Judge Moore is NOT fighting for christian freedom. He is insisting on making judeo-christian representations in a publically funded place.

Indirectly, all of our taxes fund the federal government and the facilities they operate on a daily basis. If the tablets of Moses are to be displayed, then diplay them as you would a traveling exhibit. Present them as part of a cultural/ethnic/historical awareness week. In many federal buildings, I have seen african american items on display and exhibit during Black History Month. The same venue could be provided for religious tolerance week.

However, that is the absolute limit. I am not going to ignore my taxes being used to promote any ones opinion of what is historically the religion of any country. If a compromise cannot be reached, remove the tablets by force, fine the Judge and administratively sanction/censure him from the bench. He should have known better in the first place.

KGB

Utopiano,

Do you realize that every single one of those Judges placed there hands on a bible and took an oath before they took there seat in an office. It is a fact that our fore fathers and if anyone reads the constitution will see that we did infact build this country on Christian morals and freedoms. I thank God for that because we could of all been in a country like China. Do you realize that in China if given the death sentence there are no appeals, you are taken from the court room and shot, I wonder how many innocent people lost there lives because of no freedoms. If a person does not like a Ten Commandments on the grounds of a public place they can simply look the other way, noone is taking the rights away from those who do not believe in a higher power so why are those who detest God are trying to take away our rights. Where the hell is the right in that ?

Red Witch

Isn't Fallwell and ex-JW?

czarofmischief

The foundation of the American system is the PAGAN greco-roman concepts of democracy, republic, and citizen / imperial relationships.

The Jews had little or nothing to do with it. Their religion, which mandates genocide, is the antipathy of fairness and individual merit, and the Christian version is no different.

CZAR

Elsewhere

If a person does not like a Ten Commandments on the grounds of a public place they can simply look the other way

Or the people who are imposing their faith on the public can realize just how wrong it is. Respect. That is what it all comes down to. I respect your faith and you respect everyone else's. If you want a monument to your god, then by all means construct one... but please do not impose this monument on the public at large.

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

ARTICLE 11.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796
Enacted by a 100% vote of the US senate.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm#art11

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

Utopiano Reformato

I am forced to agree with the Czar. While China may have a deplorable record in human rights and a less than adequate judicial system or trial by representation, their shotcomings/abuses are not related to whether or not the lack of the ten commandments affects their ability to govern.

Claiming we would become abusive like the chinese communists if it were not for the ten commandments is quite a stretch. The colonial forefathers made grandiose claims of freedom and equality as christian men, WHILE OWNING SLAVES. An affinity to judeo-christian teachings in no way guarantees additional measures of freedom, as evidenced by crusades, civil rights, apartheid, etc.

Utopiano Reformato

Very good research Elsewhere! Excellent job!

Ravyn

for some reason this did not show up on the thread--when and if it does, please delete the duplicate.

thanks, Ravyn

I mean no offense to KGB or other Christians, however, religion of any kind has no business in government of any kind.(didnt Jesus run away from those who would make him King? and say something about his Kingdom being no part of the world? how did it get to this now?) Including this one. If Alabama wants to display the Ten Commandments then display them, on some church property, not on government property. To force this on people in the name of government degrades both the government and the religion! (with all the crap and corruption that goes on in politics do Christians really want to claim that?) And as far as this government being founded on Christianity--that is hogwash. Yes some of the founding fathers were Christian, but it was the idea of keeping religion out of politics that was the motivation for creating this country!

I appreciate this essay:

All Those Christian Presidents

[Portions of this were originally published in the American Rationalist.]

George Washington chopped down a cherry tree and would not tell a lie about it. Abraham Lincoln freed all the slaves. John Kennedy ushered into the White House all the glory of King Arthur's Camelot. And I know how to turn iron into gold.

We so often believe what we want to believe, ignoring clear-cut evidence as we do so. This is especially true of our country's supposed Christian origins. You can find this topic almost daily in op-ed pages all across the country, as Christian fundamentalists strive mightily to turn America into the Christian nation they claim it once was. The rhetoric flows fast and thick, and after a while some of us begin to believe it. A lie told often enough.

But we must look at our history objectively and resist the temptation to rewrite it to suit our opinions of what our heritage ought to have been. This admonition applies to freethinkers as well. If our nation indeed has Christian roots, then we'll just have to accept it and move on from there. So-does it?

The obvious first step in seeking out our nation's origins is to read its founding documents. In doing so, one is struck immediately by the total absence of any mention of Jesus, Christ or Christianity. There is also no reference to any Christian church-Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Calvinist-nothing. Not a word, nor a hint. If our Founding Fathers had intended to make this a Christian nation, they could not have hidden that intention more completely, or done a worse job of it.

The Declaration of Independence refers only to "Nature's God," "divine Providence" and a "Creator." All of these terms are so vague that they could be used comfortably by any faithful Muslim. Moreover, "Nature's God" was part of a passage that reads, ".the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them." You'll notice "God" got second billing. And not only did the Founders feel that the word "God" required an adjective, but the modifier they chose, "Nature's," couldn't be further removed from Christianity, and is in fact a precise definition of the God of Deism. (Deism: The belief that an unknowable God created everything, and then just walked away from it all, leaving all things to work out their own destinies, from atoms to apples.)

The U.S. Constitution, with its Bill of Rights, fares even worse in the Christian roots theory. No deity at all is mentioned, let alone a Christian one. The wildest, broadest interpretations imaginable cannot make the Constitution a Christian document. Its only mention of religion at all is where it forbids Congress from making any laws establishing or prohibiting it, and where it forbids religious tests for holding public office. So the Constitution's two brief mentions of religion strictly emphasize the need to keep it out of government.

So, then, where did all this "Christian nation" stuff come from? Our Founders went out of their way, very wisely, to avoid religion altogether. When freethinkers point to this shrieking silence about religion, Christians often attack that point by calling it an "argument from silence," one of the weakest arguments available. Generally speaking, arguments from silence are weak. In this case, though, it is one of the strongest arguments available. Other than bluntly and specifically repudiating Christianity, which they were also wise enough to avoid, the Founders could not have made more plain their desire to separate their new government from religion. Their silence about Christianity chimes loudly and clearly. If they had wanted to mention it, they would have. But they did not.

Deathbed and trauma-induced Christian conversions of historical figures are very popular grist for Christian mills. But are they true? The first Life of Washington, for example, from which we received the ridiculous cherry tree story, was written by Mason Weems, a Christian minister and therefore hardly an objective source. He presents Washington as a devout Christian. However, Washington's own diaries record that in 1769 he attended church only ten times, in 1770 nine times, in 1771 and 1772 six times, and in 1773 five times. Devout? Hardly. Such sporadic church attendance reflects, at best, a half-hearted attempt at conforming to social proprieties. It does not reflect a devout Christian.

John Adams was a Unitarian and flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation-obviously not a Christian. John Quincy Adams was likewise a Unitarian. The brilliant Thomas Jefferson was an out and out freethinker, and even urged his nephew to "Question with boldness even the existence of a God." These are not the words of a Christian.

James Madison early on studied to become a minister, but inexplicably did not. He expressed his indignation that people were being jailed in Virginia merely for criticizing the Episcopal Church, then the established Church of Virginia. The state laws of the time called for the death penalty for the following:

Speaking impiously of any articles of Christianity

Blaspheming God's name

Incorrigible cursing

(Surely this is a lesson in why not to allow theocracies. But why is it, anyway, that as soon as religions get a foothold, they immediately begin to persecute other religions?! Is oppression a necessary component of religious belief? It certainly rears its ugly head often enough to make you think so.) Madison of course went on to become a fierce advocate of church/state separation, and as an adult he simply refused to discuss religion at all. This fact alone makes his Christianity highly unlikely, living as he did in a society that smiled favorably on it.

Abraham Lincoln was a Deist in his youth, but was subsequently, and probably wisely, advised against advertising that fact if he wanted to succeed in politics. Legend has him converting to Christianity, though Lincoln himself never bothered to mention it to anyone. No one else mentioned it either until long after Lincoln's death. And no one agrees on where or when this supposed profound life-change took place. Depending on the source, it was either in Illinois or Washington, in 1848, 1858, 1862, or 1863. Such large discrepancies make "never" the most likely.

Lincoln's closest friend and law partner for over twenty years, William H. Herndon, claimed that Old Abe had no religious beliefs at all. Lincoln's own silence on the subject makes his friend's observation seem probable.

Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen and Thomas Paine were thoroughgoing freethinking Deists. Though not Presidents, they were strongly influential in forming our early republic. Thomas Paine was a champion of reason. Highly praised for The Rights of Man, he was equally vilified for his The Age of Reason. A glittering testimonial to freedom of thought, The Age of Reason excoriated Christianity. Paine bravely put pen to paper in a way that guaranteed censure in the year of 1795. He was praised for glorifying political freedom, but cursed for applauding religious freedom. It is to history's shame that this beacon of reason and rationality suffered so tragically at the end of his life. He was a man ahead of his times.

What most of us fail to recognize in these discussions, however, is that it wouldn't matter if every single President since Washington had been a Bible-toting, evangelical Christian. They weren't, of course, but even if they had been, it still would not change the secular foundation of our republic. Christians like to quote various Presidents or Supreme Court Justices who (quite incorrectly) have referred to our "Christian nation." But what do those quotes prove? I could quote Richard Nixon, but would that prove that ours was intended to be a nation of crooks?

Our Founders' clearly created a secular government that was carefully separated from religion. You can peer and probe and dissect to your heart's content, but you will never find Christ or Christianity referred to, even obliquely, in our admirable founding documents. It is because of those documents that Christians are free to worship as they please, a priceless freedom enjoyed in precious few countries throughout history. Christians should be grateful for that freedom and stop trying to force their beliefs, posthumously, on our Founders (and on the rest of us-today!). We the People are truly a diverse group, and this has always been one of our greatest strengths. We never were, were never intended to be, and hopefully never will be, a "Christian" nation.

1997 Judith Hayes

____________________________________________________________________________

William Edelen

February 02, 2003

February is known as "Presidents Month", due to birth dates. The right wing political and Christian psycho-ceramics (crack pots) will be babbling on about our "Christian" founding presidents. They will be putting out phony, fundamentalist, quotes that are laughable to any historically enlightened person with an I.Q. above 3.

I am going to tell you a true story. Before you read it, you may want to get another cup of strong coffee or else take two aspirin. Several years ago I wrote a column , during this month, about the fact that George Washington was not even remotely a Christian, but was a Deist at best. I had the column loaded with solid documentation, foot notes, references, and even the Encyclopedia Britannica that could all be checked out. Washington looked upon Christianity as gross superstition. The secretary to the Principal of a Christian school here in Palm Springs called me on the phone and said they demanded that I write another column and apologize. She said they had "proof" that Washington was indeed a Christian. I said..."oh really...what proof?" She said: "our calendar". Staggered, I said "your calendar...WHAT calendar.?" With obvious joy she said "the calendar that Pat Robertson sends out to Christian schools...it says right here on his birthday that he was a born again Christian before he died". Almost speechless I said to her..."you do not believe the scholars who write the Encyclopedia Britannica...but you believe Pat Robertson's calendar?" Almost with anger, she yelled over the phone "of course, we believe Pat Robertson...instead of the Encyclopedia written by liberals."

I give you my word before Wakan Tanka and the Tao that is a true story. The Christian psycho-ceramics are everywhere. Documented facts mean nothing to them.

The "Philadelphia Gazette" on June 17,1797, printed the entire 12 articles of the Treaty of Tripoli with the notice that the Senate and President John Adams has approved the Treaty UNANIMOUSLY. Not even one dissenting vote. Article Eleven of that printed treaty begins with this statement: "THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION."

The treaty was written with full approval by President George Washington, in the time it took to reach the Senate, John Adams had become President and it met, as stated above, with his full approval.

Another fact: American history scholars, writing for the "Encyclopedia Britannica" have stated that our first six presidents were Deists, and not in any sense, Christian.

Quote: "One of the embarrassing problems for the nineteenth century champions of the Christian faith was the fact that not one of the first six presidents of the United States was a Christian. They were Deists." (Chicago: Encyclopedia Britannica, 1968) vol.2, p.420. Mortimer J. Adler, editor in chief, "The Annals of America: Great Issues in American Life: A Conspectus."

In Deism there is no personal God, only an impersonal energy, force, providence, "natures" God. As for Jesus he had some good thoughts but was only a teacher, nothing more. As John Adams put it: "The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus has made a convenient cover for absurdity." Also in Deism the bible is nothing but literature and bad literature at that, filled with thousands of contradictions, superstitions and falsehoods. Jefferson called the bible a "dunghill". He threw out all of the Old Testament, all of Paul's writings calling them "rubbish", and with scissors cut out all mythology and folklore in the Gospels. He left only a few of the parables that had some significance, and called that his "bible". It is in the Smithsonian.

If you can read the English language you can go to your public library and read the Jefferson-Adams letters and listen to all of the jokes they made about Jesus, the Trinity and Christian doctrine. But those living in the world of the psycho-ceramics will never take the time to do serious study with world class scholars on the subject matter.

THOMAS JEFFERSON: Notes on Religion, passed in the Assembly of Virginia in the year 1786. quote: "Christian creeds and doctrines, the clergy's own fatal inventions, through all of the ages, has made of Christendom a slaughter house. What has been the effect of the coercion of Christianity? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."

JOHN ADAMS: Letter F, Van per Kemp...quote: "Christian fables, myths, legends and tales, blended with Jewish myths, have made them the most bloody religion that has ever existed, filled with sordid fraud and superstition."

JAMES MADISON (father of the Constitution and Bill of Rights) in a speech to the General Assembly of Virginia, 1785...quote: "During 15 centuries, the legal establishment of Christianity has been on trial. What have been the fruits of that trial? Pride and Indolence in the clergy. Ignorance and servility in the laity; and in both clergy and laity, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

Presidents month, a celebration of Deism. The next time you hear some psycho-ceramic perverting and prostituting the religious beliefs of our Founding Presidents, you might remember the perfect definition of evil..."militant ignorance." Or maybe that genius, Goethe, said it better: "Nothing is more terrifying than ...ignorance in action."

William Edelen

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Ravyn

KGB

Elsewhere,

Ok so I will construct a monument in my private yard so that when everyone drives down the road the whole public can see that is different than what the courthouse is doing right ? I hardly think so. For that I might just have to build a big white croos in my front yard in which I live on a main highway so many will see it and write on it "Only Jesus Saves" on it. It's on my prvate property so do you think people will have me take it away ? Nah not at all.....

Utopiano,

I did not say that having the Ten commandments on the court house lawn would turn our country into a country like china, you better go back and read that again. What I said was that I was grateful that our founders had the goodness to create a country under God which gave us our freedom. Do you think we had freedom before our fore fathers came to this land ? No we did not... And that I was grateful because of that we are not a country like China because in all actuality we could of been communism rahter than have freedom. It was because we are under God, with truth and justice for all................

czarofmischief

liberty and justice for all, under god.

A phrase from the pledge of allegiance, which only came into existence in the thirties, I think, and is not one of the governmental documents.

Nope, we are a pagan nation with a lot of fundy nutcases living among us.

Release the LIONS! but I'm a steeler fan.

CZAR

Ten Commandments in Courthouse

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