Why is there such a 'high turnover' within the Jehovahs Witnesses?
Good post. But, I doubt JWs are ever going to become the 'quaint and benign Christian faith group' that you, myself and many other people THOUGHT they joined all those years ago. Even if this were to happen I'm done with it all.
I am fortunate I had no family there and it was relatively easy for me to "fade" when the time was right. While I realize other people are not as free to leave as I was, I would not want to have to be faking it for the sake of family or whatever. It also makes one wonder just how many JWs in any given Hall are actually in their minds still genuine JWs? Just how many are faking it, is the question.
While I wish you all the best, I still understand the point of posters like JP1692 above who raise the points he does.
While I realize other people are not as free to leave as I was, I would not want to have to be faking it for the sake of family or whatever. It also makes one wonder just how many JWs in any given Hall are actually in their minds still genuine JWs? Just how many are faking it, is the question.
I agree with your point LongHairGal. I admit I'm a faker. I think there are fakers in just about every hall throughout the world. That is really sad.
I believe the leadership at Watchtower are aware of this which is a reason why they keep their cruel shunning policy. Angus Stewart at the Australian Royal Commission nailed it when he discussed the shunning policy by saying that in effect the watchtower society is a captive religion. Many of us fakers are held captive in this Religion because of that very policy.
Q: Why is there such a 'high turnover' within the Jehovahs Witnesses?
A: Because it's a bullshit religion. Eventually, anyone with any moral integrity, even a moderate amount of courage, self-awareness and modest intelligence (which is apparently the least important of the qualities I've listed) wakes up and says, "Fuck this, I'm outta here!"
The implication of my post is that people that stay in this religion are:
- Lacking in moral integrity,
- Have less than even a moderate amount of courage,
- and are extremely low in self-awareness.
BTW, again note that intelligence is NOT a reliable predictor or who will or will not join a cult.
I'm curious and would love to see your evidence. Are you saying that if someone had decided that JWs are a bullshit religion and then stay on they are lacking in moral integrity, have less than even a moderate amount of courage and are extremely low in self-awareness?
Although if someone knows it’s bullshit and still remains in the religion, they might not be lacking in self-awareness, but they most certainly are deficient in moral integrity and courage.
I think one of the many reasons there is a high turnover rate is that the WT Society has to keep re-creating " new light " or indoctrination processes to keep the " old light " from burning out. The longer a JW remains a JW then some of them stay long enough to see the failed " end times " predictions of 1975 and bail out. But then you get new converts who come into the JW cult after the year 2000 who don't know about the WT's failed predictions. And they remain gullible- unless they research the Internet. But some of them won't because they are told not to look at any negative information related to the WT Society. So they remain in the cult with blinders on like a horse. I hope many more will escape in time. Peace out, Mr. Flipper
In my old congregation when I was in high school, there were 15 young people. Two of them are still in. Make what you will of that.
That's a sweeping condemnation jp1692 and I am not at all convinced that you can supply scientific evidence to back up your claim. I would argue that moral courage and integrity can take many equally valid forms and that an individual can be courageous even if they decide to live what you term bullshit.
Ruby, as I mentioned to Shepherdless previously:
"I'm short on time at the moment, but I wanted to acknowledge your question. I probably won't have time for a decent response for a couple of days."
You see, I have a job and a life. I only post on here when I see topics of interest or if it fits my research and/or amuses me.
So it's kind of annoying for you to suggest that my lack of response to Shepherdless' question means I don't have sources to back up my assertion, particularly since s(he) hasn't responded to my comments.
I'll repeat them for you because I'd like your response. It would certainly help me frame an answer.
Are you familiar with the concepts of:
- Cognitive Dissonance?
- Confirmation Bias?
- Asch Conformity Experiment?
- The work of Leon Festinger?
In the meantime, here is a link to the list of works which I have cited and/or consulted over the last few years as part of my research into the questions of: Who joins a cult? Who leaves? Who stays?
FYI: This research began as a personal project, but as I progressed, I was able to advance it to a more academic level. Recently I was able to present my findings on the topic at an international conference dealing specifically with the topic of recovery for current and former cult members. (For reasons that are hopefully obvious, I am leaving out certain details.)
Feel free to review this list of references and resources. It's quite extensive and thorough. I'm sure there's more than enough to keep you busy for a while.
While you're wading through that, Ruby, I'd ask you to reflect on your general overall tone and approach to virtually all of our interactions on this board: you are nearly always adversarial and snarky.
It's not cool.
- Cognitive Dissonance?
Ruby: That's a sweeping condemnation
Yes it is and I'm okay with that.
These conclusions are ones that I have come to after a combination of:
- 30-plus years in a cult
- Eight years in recovery
- Two years of therapy
- Three years of research concerning cult recover, and
- Countless conversations with other former cult members and current PIMO members, (and not just JWs).
Ruby: I would argue that moral courage and integrity can take many equally valid forms
Okay. Argue away.
Ruby: An individual can be courageous even if they decide to live what you term bullshit.
A key distinction which you seemed to have missed is not that I think it's bullshit, but that the individual thinks it's bullshit and still remains captive to the cult, pretending to believe things which they don't because they are afraid. How is that courageous? Where is the moral integrity in living a lie?
Don't get me wrong. The fears are real. I know, I did it myself for six or seven years. But ultimately those fears are soul-crushing if we let them be.
I understand as well as anyone here the consequences of leaving a cult, but it's illogical and contradictory to say someone is "courageous," if they remain in one because they are afraid.
Courage is doing the right thing in spite of being afraid, not holding back because of fear and suffering in silence.
I kind of blasted my way out of the cult shortly after my mother died, since she was in the cult mind control of the Watchtower corporation I held off from revealing my new revelations for about 2 months until after I attended her JW funeral, from then on I no longer held back. I was convinced as of 2/2001 that the WT was bogus and she died 4/2001 soon after that due to slips of the tongue and a bunch of letter I sent to individuals, I was gunned down by a couple of law enforcement agents from the WTBS goon squad( elders).
So basically I was catapulted out of the mind control cult and stripped of any communications with my relatives stuck inside to get them out. Any limited contact I have is in strict obedience drum into them from the cult.
I say while it may show a lack of courage to confront these issues about loyalty to the cult, it has its reasons that are important to individual and there for lacks any kind of negative judgement from me as being a coward. I think the word coward has been use by government propaganda to preach the faithful drones onto the battle field to fight for their country what ever that is. So I tend to stay away from it as a motivator and make myself hold off any negative judgements about a person's reasons for remaining incognito there are too many issues for me to pass judgement.
I think your definition of the courage very biased and one sided perhaps due to your cherry picking definitions that suit you. I'm other sure other definitions about being courageous exist that are less one sided and not used to authoritatively to prove a point to its readers.
So I recommend you allow room for persons handling their predicament with a bit of:" Don't criticize and abuse till you walked a mile in my shoes" as the song goes.