Is most of the promotion of creationism, not just that by the WT, charlatanism?

by Disillusioned JW 86 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Regarding the claim made by hooberus of why the multi-verse theory was proposed and regarding his claim of "Other universes aren’t testable", the Discovery magazine article (from the year 2008) which he provided a link to (on page 7 of this topic) says the following.

    'And in the late 1970s, Linde, then a professor at the prestigious Lebedev Physical Institute in Moscow, ..was trying to understand the physics of the Big Bang. Linde and other researchers knew that something was missing from the conventional theory of the Big Bang, because it couldn’t explain a key puzzling fact about the universe: its remarkable uniformity.

    In the standard version of the Big Bang, they couldn’t.

    ... MIT physicist Alan Guth found a viable, but flawed, solution to the puzzle in 1981. Linde shored up that work shortly thereafter, making improvements to overcome those flaws. In a nutshell, Guth and Linde proposed that the universe underwent a colossal growth spasm in the first instants of its existence, a phenomenon called inflation. Today widely accepted as the standard version of the Big Bang theory, inflation holds that regions of the universe that are currently separated by many billions of light-years were once close enough to each other that they could exchange heat and reach the same temperature before they were wildly super-sized. Problem solved.

    By the mid-1980s Linde and Tufts University physicist Alex Vilenkin had come up with a dramatic new twist that remains nearly as controversial now as it was then. They argued that inflation was not a one-off event but an ongoing process throughout the universe, where even now different regions of the cosmos are budding off, undergoing inflation, and evolving into essentially separate universes. The same process will occur in each of those new universes in turn, a process Linde calls eternal chaotic inflation.

    Linde has spent much of the past 20 years refining that idea, showing that each new universe is likely to have laws of physics that are completely different from our own. The latest iteration of his theory provides a natural explanation for the anthropic principle. If there are vast numbers of other universes, all with different properties, by pure odds at least one of them ought to have the right combination of conditions to bring forth stars, planets, and living things.

    ... Rees, an early supporter of Linde’s ideas, agrees that it may never be possible to observe other universes directly, but he argues that scientists may still be able to make a convincing case for their existence. To do that, he says, physicists will need a theory of the multiverse that makes new but testable predictions about properties of our own universe. If experiments confirmed such a theory’s predictions about the universe we can see, Rees believes, they would also make a strong case for the reality of those we cannot. String theory is still very much a work in progress, but it could form the basis for the sort of theory that Rees has in mind.

    “If a theory did gain credibility by explaining previously unexplained features of the physical world, then we should take seriously its further predictions, even if those predictions aren’t directly testable,” he says. “Fifty years ago we all thought of the Big Bang as very speculative. Now the Big Bang from one milli­second onward is as well established as anything about the early history of Earth.”

    ... “If you measure something which confirms certain elaborations of string theory, then you’ve got indirect evidence for the multiverse,” says Bernard Carr, a cosmologist at Queen Mary University of London.

    Support for the multiverse might also come from some upcoming space missions. Susskind says there is a chance that the European Space Agency’s Planck satellite, scheduled for launch early next year, could lend a hand. Some multiverse models predict that our universe must have a specific geometry that would bend the path of light rays in specific ways that might be detectable by Planck, which will analyze radiation left from the Big Bang. If Planck’s observations match the predictions, it would suggest the existence of the multiverse.

    When I ask Linde whether physicists will ever be able to prove that the multiverse is real, he has a simple answer. “Nothing else fits the data,” he tells me. “We don’t have any alternative explanation for the dark energy; we don’t have any alternative explanation for the smallness of the mass of the electron; we don’t have any alternative explanation for many properties of particles.

    “What I am saying is, look at it with open eyes. These are experimental facts, and these facts fit one theory: the multiverse theory. They do not fit any other theory so far. I’m not saying these properties necessarily imply the multiverse theory is right, but you asked me if there is any experimental evidence, and the answer is yes. It was Arthur Conan Doyle who said, ‘When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.’” '

    The article also says the following which seems very weird to me, but which at the same time seems consistent with some other things I have read (including of pantheism in the sense of the entire universe being one conscious entity, of which its component parts [including human minds] are interconnected in way) and with some experiences of mine pertaining to the idea of the so-called "Law of Attraction" (also known as "The Secret"). 'As for Linde, he is especially interested in the mystery of consciousness and has speculated that consciousness may be a fundamental component of the universe, much like space and time. He wonders whether the physical universe, its laws, and conscious observers might form an integrated whole. A complete description of reality, he says, could require all three of those components, which he posits emerged simultaneously. “Without someone observing the universe,” he says, “the universe is actually dead.” '

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a36329671/is-the-universe-conscious/ has an article called "Some Scientists Believe the Universe Is Conscious:Sounds like a bad trip ... but what if it's true?"

  • jhine
    jhine

    I have not read through the whole thread, just the OP and a few random posts .

    However it seems to me that the OP only refers to religion in America.

    News flash there are a few Christians dotted around in other countries.

    I find myself constantly pointing this out on other sites, a lot on Quora. Religion in the US seems to have developed in a bubble. I don't know any 7 day creationists at all . The Church of England and l believe Catholic Church fully embrace evolution.

    Tbh I'm not sure about British JWs but again religious ideas exported from America. .

    Jan

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Hi jhine, yes my opening post relates mostly to people of the United States of America, but not entirely to them. The USA is the country I have lived my entire life in and thus I frequently meet creationists of various kinds (not just 6 day or 7 day young Earth creationists). Some of the people in the USA are old Earth creationists who believe life has existed on Earth for hundreds of millions of years. I wish that creationism (especially the non-evolutionary kind) in the USA would go away. But, creationism of some form is present in some other countries also (including some Muslim ones), though in the vast majority of countries the percentage of people who believe in creationism is far less than that in the USA.

    Perhaps a big part of the reason why you "don't know any 7 day creationists at all" and why your Church teaches evolution is because Charles Darwin (who authored On the Origin of Species and other books promoting evolution, and who heavily promoted evolution and his theory of natural selection) was English and lived in England.

    Probably the vast majority of the people who post on this web site believed in the WT/JW religion at some point in their life. From the beginning of the WT religion the WT has taught a form of biblical creationism (though never one in which the biblical 6 days of the Genesis chapter one account were considered to be literally a solar day each). The WT religion is not confined to the USA. For example, there are Jehovah's Witnesses in England and even in Germany and in the Russian Federation.

    In my community I have met Catholics who don't believe in evolution and who thus don't believe God used macroevolution. I have also met a Hindu immigrant from India who does not believe in evolution. Both of them told me they are aware that their religion says it is fine to believe in evolution.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    jhine, in my neighborhood there is a Seventh-day Adventist Church within a 20 minute walk from home. In my department at work (of about 80 to 100) people there is a Seventh-day Adventist and there is one person who says she was formerly a JW and formerly a Mormon. Previously, during my 5 years as an employee at my current place of work I have met three JWs (two of whom were temporary workers).

    I make my posts on this site to persuade people to switch from creationism to evolution because in my country (the USA, which is one of the largest countries in the world) there are more adults who believe in non-evolutionary creationism instead of evolution, and who believe that humans have existed for no more than than 10,000 years (according to polls). On this topic I am thus trying to change the minds primarily of US Americans.

  • jhine
    jhine

    Hi DisillusionedJW . Well you are kind of proving my point about American religion. JWs and Seventh Day Adventists both spread from America.

    Yes there are lots of JWs in the UK but they believe what Americans tell them to .

    I don't think that British religious groups only accept evolution just because Darwin was British. I believe that the vast majority of non American Christians are happy to accept evolution.

    Schools in pretty much every country teach evolution. As far as l am aware it's only American Christians ( and l am aware not all ) that call for schools to teach 7 day creation.

    If the word American has come up a lot in this post it's because the US appears to be the only country with this argument raging .

    Jan

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    jhine, I didn't mean that the "British religious groups only accept evolution just because Darwin was British". I meant that maybe a higher percentage the population of England and the UK came to accept than maybe elsewhere because Darwin was British. I agree with you that JW and SDA religions both spread from the USA. Is the USA really the only country where the argument is raging? Even in countries where it is not raging, do some of those countries have at least 20% of their population believing in some nonevolutionary form of creation/creationsim (even if not a 7 day form and even if not a biblical form)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism_by_country says the following.

    'In recent years the teaching of creationism has become a subject of debate in a variety of countries including Germany, the UK, Italy, the Netherlands, Poland, and Serbia.[29][30][31][32]

    Creation science has been heavily promoted in immigrant communities in Western Europe, primarily by Turkish Islamic creationist Adnan Oktar.[29] On October 4, 2007, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe adopted The dangers of creationism in education, a resolution on the attempt by American-inspired creationists to promote creationism in European schools. It concludes "The war on the theory of evolution and on its proponents most often originates in forms of religious extremism closely linked to extreme right-wing political movements... some advocates of strict creationism are out to replace democracy by theocracy... If we are not careful, the values that are the very essence of the Council of Europe will be under direct threat from creationist fundamentalists."[33]

    ... Speaking at the British Science Association's British Science Festival at the University of Liverpool in 2008, Michael Reiss estimated that about only 10% of children were from a family that supported a creationist rather than evolutionary viewpoint.[50] Richard Dawkins has been quoted saying "I have spoken to a lot of science teachers in schools here in Britain who are finding an increasing number of students coming to them and saying they are Young Earth creationists."[51]

    ... Some private religious schools in the UK teach creationism rather than evolution.[47] The British Humanist Association and leading scientists campaigned to make creationism illegal in state funded schools from 2011 onwards. In 2014 they achieved their goal when the Department for Education updated the funding contracts of Academies and Free Schools to this effect, and at the same time, clarified that creationism being taught as science contravened existing 'British values' requirements.[54]

    ... Currently in Egypt, evolution is taught in schools but Saudi Arabia and Sudan have both banned the teaching of evolution in schools.[57][58] In recent times, creationism has become more widespread in other Islamic countries.[59]

    ... Following the 1980 Turkish coup d'état, the military leadership and subsequent governments promoted Islamicism to promote national unity, which eventually included translation and distribution of materials from the US Institute for Creation Research and creationist high-school textbooks.[29] A survey published in 2008 found that about 25% of people in Turkey accepted evolution as an explanation for how life came to exist.[61] In 2008, Richard Dawkins' website was banned in Turkey;[62] the ban was lifted in July 2011.[63] As of 2009, creationism had become the government's official position on origins.[56] ...

    In 2017, Turkey announced plans to end the teaching of evolution in Turkish schools, with chairman of the Board of Education, Alpaslan Durmuş, claiming it was too complicated and "controversial" a topic for students.[70] '

    I think that all public (government run) schools in the USA teach evolution (largely due to USA Supreme Court rulings), but maybe some of them might try to make a disclaimer about evolution or try to teach creationism or Intelligent Design along side it. In fundamentalist church run schools and in fundamentalist homeschooling (of the kind which meets the qualifications for getting a government recognized diploma or degree) the textbook sometimes teaches creationism and Christianity along with naturalistic evolution. Those books (for religious schools and for home schooling) thus properly inform students what the accepted scientific view is about evolution is, but they also present Christian rebuttals to it. But creationists don't always get their creationist view from school.

    I don't recall the grade school (kindergarten through 8th grade) I attended ever teaching me evolution (but maybe it made a passing reference to it in some course), but it certainly never taught me creationism. The high school I went to taught evolution in the biology textbook and in the prehistory section of one of the world history textbooks, and none of my high school courses taught creationism. But, the JW religion I was raised in taught JW creationism in much of its literature and taught against evolution (against macroevolution, but not against microevolution). Likewise many people in the USA who became creationists got their creationism from their religious instruction (such as in church and/or from their parents) and not from public school courses.

  • jhine
    jhine

    Disillusioned JW . I had a look at that survey and another was conducted later which gave much lower figures .

    These may well have been JWs and some Muslims as it just said that religious people were polled .

    Certainly in the UK l would think that most young Muslims agree with evolution .

    Creationism isn't an issue here , the vast majority of Brits give no thought to the subject at all . We are a much more secular society and Christians, other than JWs , have no problem with evolution.

    Creationism is never mentioned in the media which it seems to be in the US as this battle rages.

    Jan

  • TD
    TD

    News flash there are a few Christians dotted around in other countries.

    Seriously

    Jane Goodall, (one of the Trimates aka Leaky's angels) is a devout Christian. The inability to reconcile Christianity with what has become a huge chunk of science is very much an American thing

  • hooberus
  • jhine
    jhine

    https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/165480/anglicans-back-darwin-over-noisy-creationists

    I was looking back over past posts about this subject and came across this . It's 14yrs old . I wasn't aware of this and l am an Anglican!

    There are some interesting points in OP . Well worth a read.

    Jan

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