The ransom makes no sense

by BourneIdentity 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • JoenB75
    Cufty you need to brush up on your punch lines. We are to hate evil just as God hates sin and other evils ☺️.
  • cofty

    Joan - You did NOT say that you hated evil. You said that you 'despise the human race'.

    I was about to say that this attitude makes you a terrible christian but actually I think it just makes you a christian who accidentally spoke his mind.

  • JoenB75

    Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

    I dont think you ever understood that one as JW

  • cofty

    So christianity is about hating your family and despising the human race.

    What a contemptible and dehumanising worldview.

  • BourneIdentity

    That scripture at Luke 14:26 is so fucked up. Anyone that is proud to do that to your flesh and blood is a pathetic son of a bitch.

  • Hisclarkness

    The good news of the kingdom that Jesus and his disciples preached had nothing to do with a ransom sacrifice. Think about it - how could it?? The disciples had no idea Jesus was going to die and were heavily disappointed when he did. The good news was only about loving God and loving your neighbor.

    The ransom sacrifice was a tool used by Paul to help convert Jews to Christianity. Instead of sacrificing animals all the time, Jesus died once and for all. Therefore you don’t need to sacrifice anymore because Jesus was your sacrifice.

    It is similar to when Moses instituted the Law. Instead of sacrificing your babies, you should sacrifice animals. It was a step up in knowledge from previous belief. (The Israelites still continued to fall back into the belief of human sacrifice from time to time).

    The ransom sacrifice was a tool but it was never intended to be the cornerstone of the Christian faith. The Christian faith was all about dismantling institutionalized religion and having a personal faith with God while loving everybody as a brother and sister.

  • Diogenesister
    It's ironic that the JW's still claim that Barbour rejected the ransom given the fact that they are far closer to his view today than they are to Russell's

    TD or Cofty can you explain the difference please....I still don’t get it

  • cofty

    Diogenesister - The key is vicarious punishment.

    Think about the Day of Atonement. The High Priest confessed the nation's sins. The people deserved to die. God accepted the life of an animal in their place. The lamb was sacrificed and the HP presented the blood on the altar in the Holy of Holies. The lamb was punished vicariously in the place of penitent Jews.

    Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. A righteous god must punish sin. We deserve to die for the actual things we do wrong - not for our 'inherited imperfection' as JWs teach. Jesus' suffering and death was the punishment due to us that he took in our place.

    Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering,
    yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.

    But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities;
    the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

    We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way;
    and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    - Isa 53

    He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls - 1 Peter 2

    Ask a JW why Jesus died and they will talk about the imperfection that Adam lost and one perfect life being exchanged for another perfect life.

    Ask a christian why Jesus died and they will say that he took their punishment on the cross as payment for all the things they do wrong.

    This was the thing that Barbour rejected. Russell taught the traditional christian view of Jesus' death as vicarious punishment. Barbour thought this was monstrous and likened it to beating his wife because the children has been naughty. Ever since then the WT claim that it upholds the 'ransom' has been nothing but spin.

    Personally I think Barbour was right but I also know that the christian perspective - very much the NT one - is psychologically powerful. The idea that Jesus was on the cross for your sins, not in order to complete some impersonal legal transaction.

  • Vidiot

    I always had trouble wrapping my head around the Ransom thing.

    I tried to get my Dad to explain it, and he essentially described it like so...

    ...a "perfect" man - Jesus - had to willingly accept the sentence for a capital offense against Jehovah that he didn't commit to correct the cosmic imbalance (somehow) caused by a "perfect" man - Adam - being justifiably sentenced for a similar capital offense (which, in turn, had also created some kind of nebulous genetic flaw which resulted in "imperfection" *).

    When I asked why Jehovah didn't simply forgive Adam for his sin, I was told that...

    a) ...Adam wasn't actually repentant, and besides...

    b) ...when you sin in a "perfect" state, forgiveness isn't possible.

    Ultimately, though, all this explanation did was make me scratch my head until I - ultimately - gave up on fully grasping it, and instead become somewhat fixated on "perfection"... the point where, in fact, I thought that all my various unhappinesses were actually the result of my own "imperfections", i.e., inherent flaws.

    In fact, looking back, I think that was a major component of why I stayed in as long as I did...

    ...the WT's "New System" ostensibly promised "eternal life", but "perfection" was my specific carrot, because I thought that, besides being more physically attractive, it also meant never being wrong or making mistakes (understandable when everybody around you says, "oh well, we're all imperfect, we make mistakes" whenever you screw up, which I nevertheless found hugely embarrassing and hated), and therefore - theoretically - never feeling bad about myself again**.


    It's funny now, but it actually felt like a huge weight was lifted off my shoulders when - shortly before my fade - I realized that the vast majority of JWs each defined "perfection" a little differently from the next...

    ...i.e. notions of "perfection" were so extremely subjective that - ultimately - there's really no such thing...

    ...and, therefore, aspiring towards it was a total fucking waste of time and energy.


    *On a related note, this is the primary reason for the WTS's rejection of evolution... their cosmology simply doesn't work if Adam isn't a literal historical figure as he's presented in Genesis...


    ...I now actually wonder if said cosmology was tweaked by WT "theologians" this way specifically because they found evolution so objectionable.

    **I also suspected people got off on using said wrongness and mistakes as a pretext to counsel criticize pick on me, and if/when I became "perfect", they would be silenced forever, much to their chagrin and my immense satisfaction.

    Yes, I freely admit I had a massive chip on my shoulder.

  • JoenB75

    God can do with this fallen sick creation as he wishes. God owns us, we are nothing but clay in his hands, even clay in a most appaling condition 😰. As David says in Psalm 139:7, where can I hide from your Spirit? He is the great I AM, we come and go. Thankfully the Lord on High loves us and did the greatest act of love - Jehovah crucified 😲 🥰

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